Whiney players....

[cougent]

If the person is whining because the game sucks, part of the solution is going to be fixing the game.

I agree 100%, fixing the problems has to be done at a mature level though. Start whining and you are more likely to be ignored than to get anything resolved.

That's helpful and on topic. Also, when giving advice, you always have to remember there's two sides to an issue, and you're getting one side. Frequently the only way to understand why the defendant is acting the way they are is by figuring out what the plaintiff doesn't understand or isn't saying.

And here I disagree completely. I agree that the player has a position, and that he can seek to make the situation right for himself maturely, but just as I don't try to understand criminals and terrorists, I do not try to understand whining and rudeness. I will (and have) worked to resolve issues with my own players in the past (and will again in the future) but would never reward rudeness or whining by acquiescing to those demands. Be mature, be civil, or be gone.

I still find attacking the side you did get to hear and declaring him "wrong" as totally innaprpriate, but thats just me.

 

[cougent]

Part of the solution is to fix the game. Given the description I would say that is the biggest piece of the solution. Get rid of legitimate reasons to whine before complaining about the player whining.

You previously stated that your strong reaction was from an experience with a bad DM, we all respond somewhat from our own experiences. Mine being from having the extremely annoying whiney player. [post 59] From my history the answer from one perspective would agree with you completely. To my whiney player I was 100% wrong as well. To 3 others he was 100% wrong, and to the other 4 there was no spoken opinion. To "Get rid of legitimate reasons to whine" with my whiney player I would have had to quit / cancel the game since he felt I was always wrong. Since neither he nor any of the other 7 players wanted to DM a game (yes I did inquire), I don't see how following his wishes would fix the game.

If you go out of your way to give players something to whine about then you will have whiny players. Which, by his own description, is what the OP did.

I agree with the first sentence and totally don't see the second one in the OP.

 

[prosfilaes]

just as I don't try to understand criminals and terrorists, I do not try to understand whining and rudeness.

You do know that frequently they consider you to have been rude and committed crimes? If nobody is trying to understand each other, things deteriorate quickly.

would never reward rudeness or whining by acquiescing to those demands. Be mature, be civil, or be gone.

It's a solution that has been espoused here, and which has some merit. However, if you expell any players who are seen as complaining, the other may choose silence rather than expressing what they find lacking in your campaign; you may be expelling a player if that if you approached them in a mature and civil manner, they might improve; and you might end up expelling a significant part of your group if your standards on politeness are too rigid.

I still find attacking the side you did get to hear and declaring him "wrong" as totally innaprpriate, but thats just me.

I can't see that as viable over all cases. If the OP had said

I try to play a fair game; I only get a TPK every couple sessions. But the players keep coming up after the game and complaining...

or even

I try to play a fair game; I only get a TPK every couple sessions. But one player keeps whining in game...

would you still find inappropriate to mention that the problem might be the OP's game? Between the two is only a matter of perception and degree.

 

[jmucchiello]

Because, frankly, there is a problem.
100% your fault, maybe not. But are you responsible, in major part? Most decidedly, yes.

How many times are you going to throw in his face "the problem" that he admitted was his fault? Did you read the whole thread? The guy said parts of the scenarios posted were problematic. And all you can do is post again and again that he is the problem. Old news. Move on.

I want to know what happens next but thanks to the posters who wouldn't stop riding the guy, we probably won't find out as I doubt he'll be back. Great way to welcome some one new to ENWorld.

 

[Gothmog]

How many times are you going to throw in his face "the problem" that he admitted was his fault? Did you read the whole thread? The guy said parts of the scenarios posted were problematic. And all you can do is post again and again that he is the problem. Old news. Move on.

I want to know what happens next but thanks to the posters who wouldn't stop riding the guy, we probably won't find out as I doubt he'll be back. Great way to welcome some one new to ENWorld.

Exactly- Slaygrim admitted he's a novice DM, and was also asking for advice in addition to venting about a crappy player. He clearly stated that the NPC aiding in the fight was a setup for events in the following campaing, and had not used an NPC for a similar purpose in another fight previously in that campain at all. And clearly the group didn't have trouble with the runic guardian or beholder- they mowed over them in 2 rounds. True the Wiz 15 got lucky and toasted the Sor 16 with a spell, but those things happen in D&D. And if the Wiz was occupying the Sor, then it sounds like the next round the party melee specialists would have carved the sorcerer into a million little pieces. Bad move on the part of Slaygrim to make an "outclassing" encounter? Maybe- but he did also take into account that the villian NPCs used up a lot of resources to battle through the dungeon- which is a GOOD DM move. Bad move on the player's part to throw a whiny temper tantrum? Most definitely.

Then, the "nerfing" of the wizard PC. As I have said before, and other posters- the wizard PC wasn't useless in the iron golem fights. He could buff other party members, use terrain modifying spells (wall of force for example), or summon critters to help take the heat off the front-line PCs. And Slaygrim said repeatedly this was NOT a common occurrance- it only happend in two cases in the campaign. This player expected to be able to evoke and blast 24/7 and never have to modify his tactics- which is a really stupid move on the part of the player to be honest. He built a one-trick pony for a PC, and when his one trick didn't work, he threw a temper tantrum and blamed the DM for "screwing" him. Sorry bub, you screwed yourself- no pity from me there.

Both of these occurrances were exceptions to the rule in Slaygrim's campaign, not the norm. Plus, he told us of preivous experience with the guy throwing temper tantrums during a duel with another PC wizard, and that the other players were bothered by the whiner's behavior and one was thinking of leaving. Further, he told us that the other players didn't have a problem with the game- more with the problem player. The icing on the cake is the whiner complaining about an easy encounter. The problem here isn't Slaygrim's- its the whiner player.

Several posters rode Slaygrim hard about his DMing, while apparently not even reading or paying attention to his comments as he posted- and he got more and more frustrated. I can definitely see why. Did he make some mistakes? Yes- and he admitted to them. That takes some maturity to do so, and I commend him for that. He's trying to learn and improve his game. On the other hand, the whiner isn't contributing anything- in fact, by all accounts, he is DETRACTING from Slaygrim's and his players enjoyment of the game. In fact, the whiner acts like he is "entitled" to whatever he wants, and uses whining tactics to get it. Here's the deal bub- you want to treated like an adult, you have to act like one- then you'll earn respect instead of scorn, and rightfully deserved mocking.

I feel for Slaygrim- he came here wanting to vent yes, but also for advice about how to handle this player. Instead, he got barbed and criticized by posters who identified with the whiner (for whatever reasons- I'll leave it at that), and who didn't even apparently read his posts, just scolded him for "badwrongfun" DMing. I've dealt with whiner players before (see my preivous posts) and crappy DMs. Slaygrim isn't a crappy DM, but this player is most certainly a jackass and not worth keeping around. If you're still reading this Slaygrim, keep up the good fight, and don't cave in to this guy. If he keeps acting like this, don't be afraid to exclude him from the group and boot him- and don't feel bad about booting him- this guy would try anybody's patience. And though it might not mean much, please accept my apologies for how you were treated here- IME most folks here are pretty helpful and civil. You apparently just happened to get unlucky and draw a lot of flack from whiner player, player entitlement sympathizers.

 

[prosfilaes]

This player expected to be able to evoke and blast 24/7 and never have to modify his tactics- which is a really stupid move on the part of the player to be honest. He built a one-trick pony for a PC, and when his one trick didn't work, he threw a temper tantrum and blamed the DM for "screwing" him. Sorry bub, you screwed yourself- no pity from me there.

So we can blame the player for "badwrongfun" now? As I said above, how flexible a player should be is not a right or wrong issue, it's a playing style issue.

I feel for Slaygrim- he came here wanting to vent yes, but also for advice about how to handle this player.

Which he got. We also got evidence that he is sensitive to criticism and that his players may in fact not talking to him about problems, because he doesn't respond well to them. I've played with one DM who we didn't talk to about problems in the campaign because we thought he'd hold a grudge and it was easier for the game to just be over.

I've dealt with whiner players before (see my preivous posts)

And you're more sensitive to that side. But that doesn't mean it's the only way to look at this case, or that it's the right way.

 

[Felix]

I feel for Slaygrim- he came here wanting to vent yes, but also for advice about how to handle this player. Instead, he got barbed and criticized by posters who identified with the whiner (for whatever reasons- I'll leave it at that), and who didn't even apparently read his posts, just scolded him for "badwrongfun" DMing. I've dealt with whiner players before (see my preivous posts) and crappy DMs. Slaygrim isn't a crappy DM, but this player is most certainly a jackass and not worth keeping around. If you're still reading this Slaygrim, keep up the good fight, and don't cave in to this guy. If he keeps acting like this, don't be afraid to exclude him from the group and boot him- and don't feel bad about booting him- this guy would try anybody's patience. And though it might not mean much, please accept my apologies for how you were treated here- IME most folks here are pretty helpful and civil. You apparently just happened to get unlucky and draw a lot of flack from whiner player, player entitlement sympathizers.

I'll agree with most of this; it's hard to deal with folks in long threads that don't read every post and raise issues that had been previously addressed.

I would, however, encourage Slaygrim to talk to the player about how both of you might work together to change habits that are frustrating to the other. Naturally, if no consensus can be reached, exodus or expulsion is the remaining solution; I would hope that it be left as a final solution, to be used after other avenues are explored first.

Good luck Slaygrim, and I hope your fortunes change in the game he is running.

 

[jdrakeh]

Oh. Dear. God. We have a guy, who came here to whine about a whiner and then got himself suspended for whining when people gave him advice that he didn't like. But it just couldn't end there, no. He had his buddy sign up to whine for him by proxy about people siding with the whining player that the guy originally came here to whine about. Surely this is some kind of weirdo surreal satire. There is no possible way that this can be real.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Oh. Dear. God. We have a guy, who came here to whine about a whiner and then got himself suspended for whining when people gave him advice that he didn't like. But it just couldn't end there, no. He had his buddy sign up to whine for him by proxy about people siding with the whining player that the guy originally came here to whine about. Surely this is some kind of weirdo surreal satire. There is no possible way that this can be real.

You pass a sign post.
It says 'Welcome to the Whiny Zone'....

Gothmog - you may not agree, but my opinion is not likely to change - I do not think that anyone is going to convince anyone of anything here - in my opinion the Iron Golems scenario was a poor choice - forcing a player into a role he was badly suited for - buffing is not a whole lot of fun when it is the only thing you can do; back to the Scrabble board. Call me when the fight is over.

I was willing to bring up the DM's mistakes every time he tried to lay the whole of the blame on the player - who I feel to be less at fault, in the cited instances, than the DM. The player chose a poor method of handling an existent problem, he was not the root cause of the problem. There may have been other problems with the player, but in the cited examples, the only examples that we have been given, the player was far from the only one at fault.

At the core is the problem of a 'storytelling DM' - For a lot of players that is not a fun game, to others it can be enjoyable, but most players I have found prefer to be the main characters in the story rather than the sidekicks.

The Auld Grump

 

[jdrakeh]

You pass a sign post.
It says 'Welcome to the Whiny Zone....

You have been eaten by a grue.