Whiney players....

[JiffyPopTart]

Dear God, how old was that guy? I cannot STAND adults who throw tantrums - it's actually embarrassing even to be around people like that. They promptly get made fun of to their face.

*Throws Datafax to table*
WORTHLESS!

 

[jdrakeh]

I personally think that it is a sign of a good DM that the spellcasters meet occasional encounters where their favorite tricks work poorly.

There's a difference between rendering a character's favorite tactics useless and rendering all of their chosen, class-based, abilities useless. I agree that the first of these is a sign of good DMing. I think the latter is a marker of horrible DMing. In the former case, a player still has options -- they just have to figure out how to use their abilities differently. In the latter case, you've just punished a player for specializing in certain things by making those things totally useless. And, pardon, but that's crap.

 

[Elf Witch]

There's a difference between rendering a character's favorite tactics useless and rendering all of their chosen, class-based, abilities useless. I agree that the first of these is a sign of good DMing. I think the latter is a marker of horrible DMing. In the former case, a player still has options -- they just have to figure out how to use their abilities differently. In the latter case, you've just punished a player for specializing in certain things by making those things totally useless. And, pardon, but that's crap.

As a player and a DM I totally disagree with this. As long as it does not happen every session then I think it is okay to sometimes make it hard to use a classes special abilities. I have played a magic user going through a dead magic zone. Sure it was kind of sucky but I found other things to do to make my character useful.

In another game we ended up on the abyssal plane which made it hard for the paladin/cleric he was out of touch with his god and unable to get new spells He was basically a fighter for a couple of sessions. It was a fun part of the campaign.

I have played a rogue fighting undead and constructs and I never thought my DMing was screwing with my character because there were plenty of times where my rogue was dealing more damage than the fighter.

It is a matter of balance. Sometimes it is your turn to shine and sometimes it is someone elses. I just don't get the whine that the game is unfun because for a session or two I can't use my special abilities. As long as I am there with my friends having fun rolling dice, role playing maybe watching another player get their time in the spotlight I have had a fun game.

 

[DonTadow]

As a player and a DM I totally disagree with this. As long as it does not happen every session then I think it is okay to sometimes make it hard to use a classes special abilities. I have played a magic user going through a dead magic zone. Sure it was kind of sucky but I found other things to do to make my character useful.

In another game we ended up on the abyssal plane which made it hard for the paladin/cleric he was out of touch with his god and unable to get new spells He was basically a fighter for a couple of sessions. It was a fun part of the campaign.

I have played a rogue fighting undead and constructs and I never thought my DMing was screwing with my character because there were plenty of times where my rogue was dealing more damage than the fighter.

It is a matter of balance. Sometimes it is your turn to shine and sometimes it is someone elses. I just don't get the whine that the game is unfun because for a session or two I can't use my special abilities. As long as I am there with my friends having fun rolling dice, role playing maybe watching another player get their time in the spotlight I have had a fun game.

I agree, the biggest job for a DM is to provide challenge for your players. This means challenging the complete character. If you've made a one dimensional charactter in my game you probably won't last long. If there is heavy magic warding, then the wizard better prepare his bow. If the monsters are immune to physical damage the fighter should figure out what skills he got that can even the odds.

 

[jdrakeh]

As long as it does not happen every session then I think it is okay to sometimes make it hard to use a classes special abilities.

Making it hard and making it impossible are two different things. You may be totally happy having the DM mechanically nerf all of your charcter's special abilites, making them totally useless as a result. A lot of people don't like that. I don't know about you but, when I play RPGs, I play for fun. Having the GM nullify my character for an entire game session or three, making it impossible for me to do most (if not all) of the things that I created my character to do is not fun.

I just don't get the whine that the game is unfun because for a session or two I can't use my special abilities.

What I don't get is that you don't get that having the DM use fiat to veto the power of every choice you made when creating a charcter, effectively turning them into the mechanical equivalent of a 0-Level NPC, might not be fun for a lot of people. If you can't play the character you create, or you're not allowed to anything by way of GM fiat, why would you even bother to show up? At that point, there isn't much 'game' at all. It's tantamount to showing up for a 'game' of Monopoly and not being allowed to buy property or spend money, only roll dice.

If complaining about not being allowed to play the charcter I designed makes me a "whiner" in your games, I think it's safe to say that I'd find your games horribly, horribly, unfun. When I play D&D, for example, and I create a wizard, I expect to be actually be playing a wizard. Not a 'wizard' without powers who can't do anything heroic because the GM designed the "adventuere" specifically to nerf all of my powers. When I sign up for D&D, I expect to play D&D, not 0-Level Potato Farmers with Unuseable PC Class Abilities.

 

[jdrakeh]

In other news, is this thread really only ten posts long? Because, man, that looks weird.

 

[Elf Witch]

Making it hard and making it impossible are two different things. You may be totally happy having the DM mechanically nerf all of your charcter's special abilites, making them totally useless as a result. A lot of people don't like that. I don't know about you but, when I play RPGs, I play for fun. Having the GM nullify my character for an entire game session or three, making it impossible for me to do most (if not all) of the things that I created my character to do is not fun.



What I don't get is that you don't get that having the DM use fiat to veto the power of every choice you made when creating a charcter, effectively turning them into the mechanical equivalent of a 0-Level NPC, might not be fun for a lot of people. If you can't play the character you create, or you're not allowed to anything by way of GM fiat, why would you even bother to show up? At that point, there isn't much 'game' at all. It's tantamount to showing up for a 'game' of Monopoly and not being allowed to buy property or spend money, only roll dice.

If complaining about not being allowed to play the charcter I designed makes me a "whiner" in your games, I think it's safe to say that I'd find your games horribly, horribly, unfun. When I play D&D, for example, and I create a wizard, I expect to be actually be playing a wizard. Not a 'wizard' without powers who can't do anything heroic because the GM designed the "adventuere" specifically to nerf all of my powers. When I sign up for D&D, I expect to play D&D, not 0-Level Potato Farmers with Unuseable PC Class Abilities.

Wow it still blows my mind that people think if you can't cast spells then you are totally useless. Let me guess you also don't like playing in a game where you actually run out of spells? Or if you can't sneak attack then your rogue is useless?

Under your style of play you can never have any magic dead zones, undead or constructs or send clerics to the abyssal plane or simply have a spellcaster run out of spells because you then nullify some or all that characters powers for the session.

How do you deal with spells like sleep or hold person or fear? Those can take you out of a battle?

Losing spells or not being able to backstab does not make you a zero level NPC you still have your BAB and your skills and there are other things you can do. How about aiding another which gives them a +2 to their attack. Or do what I did in the null magic zone. I used my bow and since my sorcerer had a pretty good dex I threw vials of acid and alchemical fire. Yeah the fighters that night got more glory but I did get to play and use my high chr and diplomacy to save the party butts during part of the session.

The paladin/cleric stuck in the abyssal plane made good use of his weapons skill and bab while he was there.

When I played the rogue fighting undead I use my tumble skills to get in hit and get out without being touched. I threw holy water and saved the fighter when he got paralyzed.

It is not DM fiat or the DM being a meenie it s a DM giving a challange that makes the party think outside of the box. And sometimes it is the DM giving other players a chance to shine.

We had the choice to go the abyss we knew that the paladin/cleric would run out of spells and that we would end up being dependent on healing potions and the bard to keep us alive. But we still went and everyone had a good time.

As for the null magic zone we also had a choice to go around it but we voted as a group to go through because it was faster.

I have never played in a game with a DM who was going out of his way to ruin a players time.

Comparing it to Monopoly is not the same thing at all. Because there is more to DnD then just casting a spell or back stabbing or rolling to hit. There is also role playing. solving puzzles, interacting with the game world. coming up with tactics there is more to DnD than just being great at killing things. That is hardly the same as playing monopoly and not being allowed to buy property or spend money. I guess if you play a beer and pretzels game then this is not true and I can see why it might not be fun to play in a game that has more plot and a different kind of challange.

You said that you find a game I play in or run to be unfun well to that I would have to say that I would find it boring to have to DM for you I would never be allowed to throw any challange that might disrupt you being able to use your abilites at 100%. I could never have a world that has areas destroyed by magical wars that leave null zones or weird wacky areas. I would never be able to really push you because you would not have fun if you actually ran out of spells and the day was not over. I would never be able to send you into Cyre in Eberron if you were playing a mage or a cleric because how wacky magic acts there.

I accept that not all people want to play the way my group does but I would not go as far as you did and say that a DM that does this is a horrible DM.

 

[Elf Witch]

I agree, the biggest job for a DM is to provide challenge for your players. This means challenging the complete character. If you've made a one dimensional charactter in my game you probably won't last long. If there is heavy magic warding, then the wizard better prepare his bow. If the monsters are immune to physical damage the fighter should figure out what skills he got that can even the odds.

This is how I DM as well and how I like to play. I never design a one trick pony character. And I point this out to my players to make sure that they have a well rounded character that is good in more than one kind of situation.

 

[jmucchiello]

If complaining about not being allowed to play the charcter I designed makes me a "whiner" in your games, I think it's safe to say that I'd find your games horribly, horribly, unfun. When I play D&D, for example, and I create a wizard, I expect to be actually be playing a wizard. Not a 'wizard' without powers who can't do anything heroic because the GM designed the "adventuere" specifically to nerf all of my powers. When I sign up for D&D, I expect to play D&D, not 0-Level Potato Farmers with Unuseable PC Class Abilities.

That's nice to know. Too bad it has nothing to do with the OP really. How does facing golems nerf a wizard's class abilities? Even a dungeon of strictly golems does not nerf any wizard class ability. You just can't do direct damage. I've read the wizard description and I can't find the class ability called direct damage that was nerfed. Or are you saying that the only thing heroic about wizards are their direct damage spells? Well placed wall of force? Useless! Enlarge Person on the fighers? Worthless! Haste? Who needs an extra attack per round!?!

Nice use of hyperbole though. Potato Farmer PCs! Good stuff.

 

[moritheil]

Part of the problem here is that there's obviously a lack of trust between the players and you.

I'd say that's the whole problem.

stop gaming with this person. Once again, because it bares repeating: do not game with him any more.

And that's the solution.