Whips in General and the Lasher PrCl?

[Pax]

Yet in the S&F errata it states for the Lasher’s “Sneak attack” ability to say: After “(whether he actually has a Dexterity bonus or not),” insert: or when the Lasher flanks the target.
And the Lasher’s Sneak Attack ability can only be used with a Whip or Whip dagger.

That only means you CANsneak attack, IF you flank someone.

That does not give you teh ability to flank with ONLY a ranged weapon.

Remember: the whip and whip-dagger are one-handed weapons. Hold a dagger or shortsword in your OTHER hand ... and you can flank people, regardless of class(es), while wielding a whip or whip-dagger..

And as I said, I would predicate "flanking" on having the enemy in one or more of your threatened squares, so a Lasher could flank at 5', but not at 10' or 15', with just the whip.

By the STRICTEST LETTER of the law, even a Lasher cannot flank people with a whip alone. Misleading errata or no.

 

[Ruavel]

By the STRICTEST LETTER of the law, even a Lasher cannot flank people with a whip alone. Misleading errata or no.

It occurs to me that only the most pedantic of rules-lawyers would fail to read between the lines in this instance and thus ignore the 'intent' of the change made by the errata...

an ability that can only be used with a whip/whip-dagger that states it can be used when flanking, implies that the whip/whip-dagger can be used (by the Lasher & probably no other) to flank an opponent and therefore Sneak Attack...

I think Pax may be over interpreting in this instance... but that's jusy one man's opinion...

However getting back to melkoriii's original post on this thread, the Lasher is an excellent class with alot of style... my g/f plays a Ftr4/Rog3/Lasher4 and has an amazing combination of subtle skills and combat ability... having seen what she's done with this particular PrC is quite impressive (especially an instance where she left a monk 4 levels higher than herself with less that 25% of his full hp's after two hits with her whip-dagger while they were each standing on the roof of different buildings)...

the Lasher is awesome to see in action... (in fact, speaking of 'seeing' a Lasher, Kip the Bold did an excellent rendition of my g/f's character, Trinnen val Kemeer, on page 3 of this thread )



good luck with the character, melkoriii...

 

[melkoriii]

an ability that can only be used with a whip/whip-dagger that states it can be used when flanking, implies that the whip/whip-dagger can be used (by the Lasher & probably no other) to flank an opponent and therefore Sneak Attack...

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, disallowing flanking completely seems just wrong.

I'd not allow it within 10' or 15', since the ability to make AoO is very closely related to the threatened area, which is also used to define flanking, and therefore would only use the same 5' area, the lasher definitely gets with the Whip Lash ability.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pax]

Yeah, disallowing flanking completely seems just wrong.

I'd not allow it within 10' or 15', since the ability to make AoO is very closely related to the threatened area, which is also used to define flanking, and therefore would only use the same 5' area, the lasher definitely gets with the Whip Lash ability.

Bye
Thanee

Which is exactly what I said above, mind, as far as IMC.

*Literally* read, the Lasher cannot flank at ALL, with only a whip or whip dagger. Got to have a melee weapon to flank, if you read the rules only as printed.

I do try, for my own games, to look between the rules; in this case, I see flanking as a function of a threatened zone (which is the primary difference bwtween ranged weapons and melee weapons, aside form how far away you can whack someone with either). Rather like you can only AO someone if you threaten them, you can only flank someone if you threaten them. Simple, neat, elegant, and not overpowered (also answers the issue of flanking for other PrC's that get to threaten with ranged weapons, like the Peerless Archer, in a uniform way).

 

[Ruavel]

*Literally* read, the Lasher cannot flank at ALL, with only a whip or whip dagger. Got to have a melee weapon to flank, if you read the rules only as printed.

I don't recall it saying anywhere that the Lasher cannot flank with only a whip or whip-dagger...

page 130 of the PHB says that you get a +2 bonus if attacking with a melee weapon and have an ally directly opposite your opponent also threatening them...

obviously there is a bit of a contradiction in this situation, but I do not think that the Lasher would be required to be carrying a melee weapon in their off hand in order to use their Sneak Attack ability (especially getting that if you used your strict rules logic, the use of the ranged weapon would negate the melee weapon factor for the purpose of flanking...)

the last thing I want is for this to become a heated arguement when someone just wanted to know what people thought of the Lasher... by the sounds of things, it appears that certain elements of the Lasher's abilities will be dependant on the GM running the game (ie either word-for-word interpretation or interpretation of the intent of the word)...

good points have been made for both sides... I guess melkoriii has to make up his own mind (possibly in consultation with this GM) about taking Lasher levels... although even taking out the "flanking" thing, it's still and awesome class...

 

[Plane Sailing]

The whip is a ranged weapon.

Can't imagine why they decided to do this. It makes *much* more sense as a melee weapon with 15ft reach.

After all, one classic use of a whip is to keep wild animals (or people) at bay... which in D&D terms would be seen as not wanting to attract an AoO by moving through its threatened area.

Frankly, for an exotic weapon the whip shouldn't need a whole prestige class to make it worthwhile.

Cheers

 

[Dragongirl]

hmmmm whips are always good, and so versitile....... grabbing hold of something/someone at a distance, pulling a lever, tripping someone/something and a hell of a lot more fun than a 10' pole in those....non combat situations

Thought at first this thread said something about Whips and Leather, was a little sad when I saw it was Lasher not Leather.

 

[Pax]

I don't recall it saying anywhere that the Lasher cannot flank with only a whip or whip-dagger...

page 130 of the PHB says that you get a +2 bonus if attacking with a melee weapon and have an ally directly opposite your opponent also threatening them...

Players Handbook, page 130, right-hand column (so very difficult to find; I had to gasp! use the index!):

Flanking
If you are making a melee attack against a creature, and an ally directly opposite you is threatening the creature, you and your ally flank the creature. You gain a +2 flanking bonus on your attack roll. A rogue in this position can also sneak attack the target. The ally must be on the other side of the defender, so that the defender isdirectly between you.

Pay especial attention to the bits I put in italics above. To flank a creature, you have to be making a melee attack (Whips, being ranged weapons, do not qualify for this), and, your ally has to be opposite the defender form you -- AND has to threaten the defender (a basic fighter with a bow in hand threatens no squares, and so, can GIVE no flanking bonus to any allies).

obviously there is a bit of a contradiction in this situation, but I do not think that the Lasher would be required to be carrying a melee weapon in their off hand in order to use their Sneak Attack ability (especially getting that if you used your strict rules logic, the use of the ranged weapon would negate the melee weapon factor for the purpose of flanking...)

Actually, I hadn't even realised flanking status only counted durign an actual melee attack. Therefor, my prior claims as to having a dagger in their off-hand are indeed irrelevant; the lasher cannot flank a foe while using a whip or whip-dagger, ever. They can qualify their allies for flnking, due to the threat zone their class provides them while weilding whips, etc.

the last thing I want is for this to become a heated arguement when someone just wanted to know what people thought of the Lasher... by the sounds of things, it appears that certain elements of the Lasher's abilities will be dependant on the GM running the game (ie either word-for-word interpretation or interpretation of the intent of the word)...

good points have been made for both sides... I guess melkoriii has to make up his own mind (possibly in consultation with this GM) about taking Lasher levels... although even taking out the "flanking" thing, it's still and awesome class...

Flanking or no, Lashers are great. Rogue-Lashers are truly evil, especially with opportunist, if you get to Rogue(10). Consider Rogue(6)-Fighter(4)-Lasher(10) as a goal. You can specialise (gaining +2 damage), pile on the ranged weapon feats (Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, the ever-critical Precise Shot), and have decent sneak attack damage.

At epic levels, that same character can add in the Opportunist ability. Truly evil. 8)

Now, on top of that -- nothing says you cannot dual-weild whips or whip-daggers. Ambidexterity, Two-weapon, Improved two-weapon, and a pair of whip daggers. >8) Whip daggers are light weapons, even for HALFLINGS (I've seen a Rogue(10)-Fighter(4)-Lasher(2) in action ... it was ugly. Ugly, and PAINFUL, and glorious ... heh ...

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Now, on top of that -- nothing says you cannot dual-weild whips or whip-daggers. Ambidexterity, Two-weapon, Improved two-weapon, and a pair of whip daggers. >8) Whip daggers are light weapons, even for HALFLINGS (I've seen a Rogue(10)-Fighter(4)-Lasher(2) in action ... it was ugly. Ugly, and PAINFUL, and glorious ... heh ...

Yes and no. . Check pg 100 of the PHB under the Crossbow Heavy section. It states that Two-Weapon Fighting only works with melee weapons, however you could use Ambidexterity. There is a feat in Dragonstar called twin gun fighting (I think) which allows you to attack with two ranged weapons, it could be easily adaptable for the whip.