Whirlwind-

[SpikeyFreak]

Poster 1: Well, there was a really long discussion about it not long ago, and it was split pretty much down the middle. The thread ended up being about 6 pages long.

Poster 2: Well, I will convince all nay-sayers by quoting the text, which has already been hashed over time and time again by dozens of people, both believers and non-believers alike.

Blah blah blah.

There you go, the text says you can do it.

Poster 3: It's not that simple. From what I see, you can NOT do it.

Poster 2: You are obviously wrong, as were the 10-15 people on the other thread that think you cannot do it. My logic is superior to mere message board posters, you should see that it is quite allowed, if you could reason.

--Harsh Spikey

 

[kreynolds]

Poster 1<snip>



--Harsh Spikey

LOL

 

[Artoomis]

I agree that you can take a 5-foot step in the middle of a WWA.

That does not, however, let you attack any more opponents, and so would be useless for that purpose, because those oppoenet were not within 5 feet when you started your WWA.

I realize one could argue that they are within 5 feet NOW, but that's a pretty weak argument and does not hold up very well.

 

[kreynolds]

I think this argument is about as dead as a doornail. Moving on, people! Nothing to see here! Nothing to see....hey...what is that...looks like crap...hey!...it is crap!

 

[Ristamar]

This will (hopefully) be my last response in this debate because everyone here is obviously set in their own opinion. If someone would like to email the Sage on the matter, please do. I tried once many weeks ago, but received no response.

Getting back to the topic, perhaps the real crux of the problem I have with your interpretation revolves around the phrase within 5'. If you want to go by a strict literal interpretation of the feat, things get 'sloppy' (see my earlier comments).

Lets say you're surrounded by four opponents:

OOOMO
MOXMO
OOOMO

O = Open Square
M = Monster/Enemy
X = Character with Whirlwind Attack

Now the character performs a whirlwind attack. We'll say his BAB is +15, giving him 3 attacks at +15 (discounting other modifiers).

Obviously he can hit any of the creatures within 5'.

Now lets assume you can take a 5' step:

OOOMO
MXOMO
OOOMO

After taking two swipes at nearby creatures, he has entered the square to his left. Is he allowed to swing at the creature now at his immediate left, or does he forfeit his last attack because there are no longer any valid targets? After all, the creature wasn't within 5' when he started his Whirlwind Attack, it was within 10'. Technically, it should not be allowed given a strict reading of the Whirlwind Attack feat, though with a full attack action it would normally be legal.

Of course, I don't think you can even take a 5' step at all until after all the attacks are completled.

Basically, if anything, the feat needs clarification, not errata. The description in the PHB isn't incorrect, it's merely somewhat vague. When scrutinizing rules, besides considering designer intent, I try to follow the KISS philosophy. Overanalyzing rules often leads to confusion, and confusion often leads to misinterpretation. In my book, the 5' steps throws a big wrench in simplicity, so that immediately sets off my alarm.

I do understand your position, and I understand your reasoning. However, I don't agree with it.

Of course, I could be wrong, and I'll graciously concede the point should Skip's clarification go against my own interpretation. However, in the meantime, please don't try to stand on high ground maintaining, "I am right and if the Sage says otherwise he is either wrong or it's errata." That's just silly, IMO.

 

[Psifon]

Spikey, Spikey Spikey

Don't you realize that the whole point of these kind of debate treads is to have the fun of debating? Do you think I would bother with this just because I have some purile need to be right?

Well, ok, do you think that I ONLY engage in these debates because of my purile need to be right?

No, no, no, I get a kick out of pitting my intellect against some of the very bright minds on these threads. I enjoy the challange of expressing my opinion precisely, so that it supports the strength of my arguement. I revel in the emotional intensity of the struggle. AND I have a purile need to be right

Well, I would agree that rather than making converts to my "side" this debate has degenerated into a level of staunch polarization of sides <<sigh>>. Well, it was fun while it lasted. There is nothing more I can say that I have not already said. I can keep repeating my message, but what is the fun of that?

I am right you know

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Psifon:

You can take a 5' step at any point between attack rolls in a full attack action, right?

--Open-Ended Spikey

 

[Corwin]

Psifon:
You can take a 5' step at any point between attack rolls in a full attack action, right?

Hehe. I know where this is headed...

Good call Spikey.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I don't want to enter the debate. I'm just going back to the original whirlwind attack cool? thing. Whirlwind attack + cleave huh don't see the benefit that often. I rarely bump into a scary opponent surrounded by absolute suckers I'm going to drop in a hit or two for this to come into play that often. Whirlwind attack+two weapon fighting, ambi dex+imroved two weapon fighting=cool. You still get 3 attacks on one guy though at 1/2 str bonus on two of the attacks, and also get to attack people all around you. Sure maybe a full attack on one guy is still better, but not by that much. And if you use MoTW you can get even more off hand attacks, and with the weapon master prestige class eventualy turn whirlwind into a standard action(and or go for that two weapon fighting prestige class in MoTW and get full str and less penalties on those extra attacks).

 

[IceBear]

This will (hopefully) be my last response in this debate because everyone here is obviously set in their own opinion. If someone would like to email the Sage on the matter, please do. I tried once many weeks ago, but received no response.

Getting back to the topic, perhaps the real crux of the problem I have with your interpretation revolves around the phrase within 5'. If you want to go by a strict literal interpretation of the feat, things get 'sloppy' (see my earlier comments).

Lets say you're surrounded by four opponents:

OOOMO
MOXMO
OOOMO

O = Open Square
M = Monster/Enemy
X = Character with Whirlwind Attack

Now the character performs a whirlwind attack. We'll say his BAB is +15, giving him 3 attacks at +15 (discounting other modifiers).

Obviously he can hit any of the creatures within 5'.

Now lets assume you can take a 5' step:

OOOMO
MXOMO
OOOMO

After taking two swipes at nearby creatures, he has entered the square to his left. Is he allowed to swing at the creature now at his immediate left, or does he forfeit his last attack because there are no longer any valid targets? After all, the creature wasn't within 5' when he started his Whirlwind Attack, it was within 10'. Technically, it should not be allowed given a strict reading of the Whirlwind Attack feat, though with a full attack action it would normally be legal.

Of course, I don't think you can even take a 5' step at all until after all the attacks are completled.

Basically, if anything, the feat needs clarification, not errata. The description in the PHB isn't incorrect, it's merely somewhat vague. When scrutinizing rules, besides considering designer intent, I try to follow the KISS philosophy. Overanalyzing rules often leads to confusion, and confusion often leads to misinterpretation. In my book, the 5' steps throws a big wrench in simplicity, so that immediately sets off my alarm.

I do understand your position, and I understand your reasoning. However, I don't agree with it.

Of course, I could be wrong, and I'll graciously concede the point should Skip's clarification go against my own interpretation. However, in the meantime, please don't try to stand on high ground maintaining, "I am right and if the Sage says otherwise he is either wrong or it's errata." That's just silly, IMO.

Yup, I'm with you. If you can attack everyone within 5ft of you when you take the action, I don't believe you are allowed to "add" targets partway through the action by a 5ft step. If anything, taking a 5ft step part way through could lead to the situation where you can no longer attack some of the valid targets. Much better to finish attacking everyone with your action and then taking the step.

Also, I've never meant that WWA was only one attack roll, just that it was one attack action as opposed to seperate attack actions (in which you could take a 5ft step).

IceBear