Whirlwind-

[Psifon]

Psifon:

You can take a 5' step at any point between attack rolls in a full attack action, right?

--Open-Ended Spikey

That is what it says on pg 124 of the PHB. Yes

--Curious Psifon

 

[Corwin]

That is what it says on pg 124 of the PHB. Yes

--Curious Psifon

Then I have but one word for you Psifon:

Cleave.

(Sorry if I stole your thunder there, Spikey. I couldn't resist. )

 

[Psifon]

So what is your point? You can no more take a 5' step between the wwa and the cleave attack then you can between an iterative attack and a cleave attack.

In the abcense of supreme cleave of course.

Changeing the subject doesn't disprove my arguement.

 

[Legildur]

I know that it is different attack rolls for each opponent within 5'. However, I still maintain that it is one attack. Much like the dreaded shuriken and sneak attack arguement - one attack, but 3 attack rolls all at the same BAB. In this case, 1 attack, but possibly 8 attack rolls at your highest BAB.

I'm happy enough with WWA that you can take a 5' step before or after you finish the attack - but not during. That is the price you pay for gaining possible additional attacks at you highest BAB.

But I look forward to a clarification from the Sage - just in case Psifon is correct.

 

[Corwin]

Changeing the subject doesn't disprove my arguement.

It's not a change in subject. It's evidence that discounts your argument. These two points are very much the same subject. Just because you don't like the evidence, doesn't remove their validity.

You state that you may take a 5' step between attacks at any time during a full attack action. That is precisely how you are justifying it in the middle of a WWA. You've said as much this entire debate.

If that is indeed the case, then you should be allowed to do so between a cleave/great cleave action as well, since they can occur during a full attack action also.

If anything, the need to have supreme cleave before being allowed to do it weakens you argument more than anything.

I tell ya what, make up a new feat/class ability called [/i]supreme WWA[/i] that let you 5' step in the middle of it. Until then, ain't gonna happen in my games.

 

[Psifon]

Well Ligildur, wait no longer. Someone on a parrallel thread at the WotC boards (I like running two debates at once) stated that he wrote the Sage, who said no 5' step in the middle of a WWA.

<<sigh>>

Oh, well, wroing again.

The sage's ruling doesn't negate the logic of my arguement, What I think he did was apply the "intent" of the rules to nerf a loophole that I found.

I still think the loophole exists fair and square.

The only way it could be something other than a loophole is if I am making an error in defining a WWA as a full attack action. In this case it would need to be a special action with rules all to itself. In other words it is not any of the types of actions defined in the PHB, but is something else all together. Thats not how the feat reads though.

I asked the poster to cut and paste the Sage's words into the thread (just 'cause I like to see things in writing), but so far no reply.

Anyway, It was a fun argument while it lasted (and I still think the Sage was wrong in his reading of the rules, even if he was correct in his intent). Thanks guys!

 

[kreynolds]

I still think the loophole exists fair and square.

The only way it could be something other than a loophole is if I am making an error in defining a WWA as a full attack action. In this case it would need to be a special action with rules all to itself. In other words it is not any of the types of actions defined in the PHB, but is something else all together. Thats not how the feat reads though.

Nope. I think your just blowin' smoke outta your <bleep!> at this point. Seriously though, I just don't see a flaw in WWA. Also, the mentioning of Cleave and Great Cleave was a really strong bit of evidence. Just my opinion though, not that it matters of course, as you can still rule 0 it.

 

[green slime]

Wait a minute! How does a fighter get WWA at 5th level.

Level 1 - Dodge, Mobility, Expertise
Level 2 - Spring... oh, wait, BAB +4 requirement... something else.
Level 3 - Something Else
Level 4 - Spring Attack
Level 5 - no feat
Level 6 - Whirlwind Attack

You aren't doing something cheesy like banking feats, are you?

Well, I believe a 5th level character could do it, but not a 5th level fighter:

Level 1 (Human Barbarian) Dodge, Mobility
Level 2 (Human Ranger) Track, Virtual Ambidex & Two Weapon
Level 3 (Human Barbarian) Something Else (Weapon Focus?)
Level 4 (Human Fighter) Spring attack
level 5 (Human Fighter) Whirlwind Attack...

So even though he used DMs Perogative he still could have done it, just not as a straight up fighter...

 

[IceBear]

Well Ligildur, wait no longer. Someone on a parrallel thread at the WotC boards (I like running two debates at once) stated that he wrote the Sage, who said no 5' step in the middle of a WWA.

<<sigh>>

Oh, well, wroing again.

The sage's ruling doesn't negate the logic of my arguement, What I think he did was apply the "intent" of the rules to nerf a loophole that I found.

I still think the loophole exists fair and square.

The only way it could be something other than a loophole is if I am making an error in defining a WWA as a full attack action. In this case it would need to be a special action with rules all to itself. In other words it is not any of the types of actions defined in the PHB, but is something else all together. Thats not how the feat reads though.

I asked the poster to cut and paste the Sage's words into the thread (just 'cause I like to see things in writing), but so far no reply.

Anyway, It was a fun argument while it lasted (and I still think the Sage was wrong in his reading of the rules, even if he was correct in his intent). Thanks guys!

I think it's because a WWA is actually ONE action and thus you can't interspace a 5ft step in the middle of it as it is one contained action. With the full attack action, you are taking multiple actions over the course of the round. You don't take a 5ft step in the middle of your second attack with a Full Attack Action, you take it either just before your attack or just it, but you don't take it during. Just like WWA.

IceBear

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Psifon, to be completely honest, according to the black and white of the rules, I think you are right.

But when discussing the rules, you really do have to take the the spirit of the rules into account. They didn't mean for you to be able to take a FFS in the middle of a WW attack.

--Spiritual Spikey