White Raven Onslaught Revision

[small pumpkin man]

Unless you can tell me what 'White Raven' has to do with 'Command and Leadership'. Even animal-named kung fu styles generally describe their inspiration and look, and phrases like "Strong as a bull" or "graceful as a cat" are common English idioms. But I've never heard "As tactical as a white raven" in my life, nor in my studies of heraldry has there been any particular symbolism associated with white ravens (I admit I might be missing one somewhere, there's a LOT of heraldic lore), etc. It's something someone rolled up. ("Lessee....18....that's white...and roll on 'Animal'....14...that's 'Raven'.")

OK, in the interests of fairness, there is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner

So it's a common battle symbol in Northern European lore. And maybe the designer was referencing that. But to use a Hongism, it's so out of the Zeitgeist that it's a failure -- it doesn't mean anything to most people, it has no current resonance. Also, according to lore (and the song I remembered which got me to look this up in the first place), whoever bears the banner dies. So, if one goes by that, what 'White Raven' means to me is self-sacrifice and granting luck to others at the cost of one's own good fortune -- probably not the designer's intent. That's what it would 'inspire' in my imagination -- and it doesn't match the rules.

Man, I was going to point out that Ravens were symbols of Odin, god of Wisdom and Battle, something that's utterly appropriate, but it's allready all there in that link . They also played a tactical place in the Hobbit.

Why "white", uhh.... because it rolls of the tongue nicely? Do you need more of a reason?

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Ravens are generally associated with intelligence, cunning and subtlety. It really is as simple as that. If you persist in thinking too hard about fantasy, that's your problem.

They're also associated with battles. And one of the defining characteristics of ravens is that they're black; so, White Raven is something unusual and clever, and definitely martial. Works very well for me.

 

[TwinBahamut]

There is a reason why skill names are things like "Craft", "Move Silently" and so forth - when the players are communicating at the table, it is clear what everyone is trying to do. That doesn't happen when you tell your fellow players "I'll White Raven Onslaught!" There is nothing in "White Raven Onslaught" that clearly tells you what the darned thing is supposed to do, other than be an attack. That's not good.

Well, no, if you know nothing about the meaning of the term "White Raven", then it is meaningless. That said, that isn't really any different than any other term in D&D. Even basic class names that long-term players take for granted are fairly unintuitive if you think about it. The name "Ranger" has very different connotations in most modern usage than "wilderness guy who uses a bow and two weapons", and the word "Rogue" does not necessarily imply a stealthy thief who strikes from the shadows. Certainly, even if you drop the name "Mordenkainen", there is absolutely no logical connection between the word 'Disjunction" and the effect of dis-enchanting magical items.

That said, every long-term player in the history of the game has gotten used to these terms and accepts their usage. I mean, look at the old Wizard Schools... Jargon words like Abjuration, Transmutation, and Conjuration weren't even consistently applied across the game and tended to be highly-counter-intuitive in the first place, yet they became deeply ingrained in many player's understanding of the game. The word "evocation" is rooted in the work "evoke", which has absolutely nothing to do with attacks of any kind (and is pretty much a synonym for "summon" or "conjure" in some uses), yet has very distinct usage related to attack magic in older versions of D&D that is not questioned at this point.

I really don't see how "White Raven" is any worse at all than any other bit of jargon in the history of the game. I suppose because it has fewer existing connotations, it actually is transferred into being jargon much more easily, because unlike "evocation" its use as jargon does not contradict the innate connotations of the word and possible uses in other jargon (I have seen "evocation" be used as a word for demon summoning and dragon-god summoning in various other games, but White Raven is unique).

Also, I think it is important to remember that jargon exists because it is useful. If they name every Power relating to a certain aspect of a warlord's abilities "White Raven", then it is much easier for a player trying to build a character around that aspect to find appropriate powers.

Anyways, no one in my gaming group had a problem with the meaning of the term White Raven when I made a White Raven/Iron Heart Warblade, so I can say from my own experience, at least, that the term "White Raven" works well enough as something to add meaning to the game.

 

[AZRogue]

Eh, there's nothing wrong with White Raven Onslaught. I would have preferred a more descriptive name, like Blitz or something. But it serves its purpose. I'm sure that most players will just shorten it to Onslaught anyway.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, the name matters, insofar as poorly chosen names make the learning curve for the system more steep. I object to these sorts of names because they are poor mnemonics. I would prefer a bland name that actually has something reasonable relation to what the ability does one that has colorful, but meaningless, adjectives.

There is a reason why skill names are things like "Craft", "Move Silently" and so forth - when the players are communicating at the table, it is clear what everyone is trying to do. That doesn't happen when you tell your fellow players "I'll White Raven Onslaught!" There is nothing in "White Raven Onslaught" that clearly tells you what the darned thing is supposed to do, other than be an attack. That's not good.

Very simply - these names are new, opaque jargon, and making up jargon for the sake of making up jargon is not a good idea.

But, all jargon has to start somewhere.

Take Magic for a second. What does White do in Magic? Or Black? Or Red? I haven't played a game of Magic in 15 years and even I can remember that White=healing type stuff and Red=blow stuff up.

So, White Raven Onslaught. Break it down. White connotes a healing/helpful effect, Raven connotes wisdom and Onslaught connotes... well, ok it's straight up denoting a devastating attack. So, put it together. You have the connotation of an effect that is going to be helpful and cunning while at the same time devastating.

And that's not drawing from anything other than normal connotations.

So, a new player is going to read White Raven Onslaught and pretty much have the basics before reading the actual effects - it's an effect that's going to kick someone's ass while helping somehow.

Oh lookie, that's exactly what the effect does. So, I don't see how this particular case is just jargon for the sake of jargon. Golden Wyvern Strike? Ok, I can see the complaints about that one. Wyvern doesn't have any particular connotations that apply to the effect. But, if you're conversant in any middling way with fantasy tropes and you don't get any connotative meanings out of the words "White" "Raven" and "Onslaught", I really have to wonder what fantasy you read.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, it is.

Unless you can tell me what 'White Raven' has to do with 'Command and Leadership'. Even animal-named kung fu styles generally describe their inspiration and look, and phrases like "Strong as a bull" or "graceful as a cat" are common English idioms. But I've never heard "As tactical as a white raven" in my life, nor in my studies of heraldry has there been any particular symbolism associated with white ravens (I admit I might be missing one somewhere, there's a LOT of heraldic lore), etc. It's something someone rolled up. ("Lessee....18....that's white...and roll on 'Animal'....14...that's 'Raven'.")

The raven is the most intelligent bird species, and is right up there with mammals (such as the wolves, which apparently it matches intelligence with). It is able to vocalize. It's a subject of a tremendous number of myths, like Native American myths, as being the ultimate symbol of cunning, and has similar myths in Scandinavia (Odin, deity of battle and wisdom), ancient Ireland and Wales, Bhutan, Siberia and northeast Asia, where it was often worshipped as a deity.

A white raven is EXTREMELY rare. For example, the Alaska Bird Observatory has just one white raven in its collection of more than 18,000 ravens collected from around the state (from 1952). It is the rarest form of raven.

So, a white raven is the rarest member of the smartest flying species on the planet, mythologically considered the most cunning animal by many ancient cultures. That spurs my imagination plenty. So yes, I'd say if that doesn't get your imagination going, then it's a failure of your own imagination.

 

[Lizard]

So, a white raven is the rarest member of the smartest flying species on the planet, mythologically considered the most cunning animal by many ancient cultures. That spurs my imagination plenty. So yes, I'd say if that doesn't get your imagination going, then it's a failure of your own imagination.

And if I say that "White Raven" is too much like "White Flag", the symbol of surrender, compromise, and defeat? Don't know about you, but white is just not a heroic color to me. As for ravens...they're battlefield scavengers, plucking the eyeballs from the dead, again, a symbol of misery, defeat, and loss. Poe's didn't pick the bird at random....it's a bleak, tragic, symbol.

So "White Raven" is about as far from "Heroic Battle Commander" as you can get, as far as my personal mythic resonance is concerned. And while it might work for you, guaranteed, something else won't -- and that's why the whole baggage-laden-name thing is a Bad Idea.

Really, the reason we have Color Animal Power naming is, based on previous comments by designers, to make it easier for players to find optimal builds without having to read the rules, understand them,and find patterns of powers which fit together. Instead of discovering combos organically, players just pick powers beginning with 'White Raven' (or whatever) to build their master of tactics. "No rules mastery!" is a mantra of 4e.

 

[hong]

And if I say that "White Raven" is too much like "White Flag", the symbol of surrender, compromise, and defeat? Don't know about you, but white is just not a heroic color to me. As for ravens...they're battlefield scavengers, plucking the eyeballs from the dead, again, a symbol of misery, defeat, and loss. Poe's didn't pick the bird at random....it's a bleak, tragic, symbol.

So "White Raven" is about as far from "Heroic Battle Commander" as you can get, as far as my personal mythic resonance is concerned. And while it might work for you, guaranteed, something else won't -- and that's why the whole baggage-laden-name thing is a Bad Idea.

The "D&D is anime" crowd does this better than you.

 

[Lizard]

The "D&D is anime" crowd does this better than you.

Does what better?

 

[hong]

Does what better?

Yes.