• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

White Raven Onslaught Revision

Hussar said:
Oh good god no. I've had a couple of decades of setting wankery forced upon me by this mindset. Gimme a complete game that I don't need to spend the next hundred hours turning into a setting.

It was more than good enough for Basic/Expert D&D, it was good enough for 1e D&D. It wasn't until 2e that suddenly every DM out there had to become a amateur hour fantasy writer in order to play the game. Give me a full, nicely detailed setting right in the core rules so I get down to playing. If you want to write fanfic, go right ahead, I won't stop you. But don't force me to spend my free time so you can have an easier time of it.

Except that since "White Raven" doesn't mean anything -- you still have to decide what it is and how it's relevant -- the only thing you're saved is the effort of rolling once on the "Color" chart and once on the "Animal" chart.

For worldbuilders, it's an annoyance that gets in the way.
For non-worldbuilders, it demands worldbuilding they'd rather not do.

(And there isn't a "fully detailed setting" in the core rules -- there's vague hints of something which might be sort of like a setting. Just enough to waste space and annoy me, not enough to provide a playable world out the box for you.)

Lose/lose.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

AllisterH said:
Similarly, Greater Skeleton Undead Bane doesn't convey anything to the players other than, "it's bad for skeletons". They still have to check their spell compendium to see what the hell the spell does and the same thing applies to ANY effect in D&D due to it not being freeform.

You're wrong.

"It's bad for skeletons" is STILL more information than you get from "Light of Mercuria". What else do you get?

It's "Greater", which implies it's at least one of two spells, possibly more.

It affects undead in general, and skeletons in particular.

Sure, you need to look up the exact details -- but for most players other than the caster, knowing "It's bad for skeletons" is enough. It says "OK, he's frying the skeletons, so I'm going after the ogre." The spell name provides, quickly, a lot of the information the OTHER players need to make their tactical choices without them having to know the full details, in a way "Light of Mercuria" does not.

EDIT: Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, names are irrelevant. Spell could be referred to as W-E-1-4, meaning "Wizard, Evocation, level 1, fourth spell on the list". Since "You have to look it up anyway", why not? And it would save so much space on character sheets!

Point blank, "Light of Mercuria" is every bit as useless as W-E-1-4 when it comes to providing information to the player. If you can defend the former, you can defend the latter. If you can't defend the latter, reconsider your defense of the former.

Hell, W-E-1-4 is actually MORE useful -- it tells you the spell's caster, school, and level! As a fan of Traveller, I can appreciate it. :)
 
Last edited:

Lizard said:
Except that since "White Raven" doesn't mean anything -- you still have to decide what it is and how it's relevant -- the only thing you're saved is the effort of rolling once on the "Color" chart and once on the "Animal" chart.

For worldbuilders, it's an annoyance that gets in the way.
For non-worldbuilders, it demands worldbuilding they'd rather not do.

(And there isn't a "fully detailed setting" in the core rules -- there's vague hints of something which might be sort of like a setting. Just enough to waste space and annoy me, not enough to provide a playable world out the box for you.)

Lose/lose.

Well, since we haven't seen the text yet, it's pretty hard to say. Considering they're including a sample town in the DMG right off the bat and at least one book (the new FR tome) contains at least three pregen adventures/scenarios, I'd say that they're going quite a ways towards giving me more than enough meat to make a campaign world.

Unlike some, I have zero problems with letting setting take a FAR back seat to developing adventures. Something like White Raven is just a nice hook to hang off a character. Gives it a bit of depth without taking up a lot of processor time. Fantastic.

I can have characters that are more than Fytor the Fighter and Cookie Jarvis the Magic-User, without having to write a whole bunch of crap myself.

That you have to do more work stripping out the flavor does not in the slightest bother me. No one gave a toss when those of us who don't want to world build were forced to by the rules. When all the basic setting was pretty much stripped from the rules.

We'll have to wait and see how things pan out, but, from what we've seen so far, they're giving us a pretty detailed world complete with racial histories, cultures, magic and whatnot. So, I think you'll be surprised at how much setting is included in the core rules.
 



I like the name White Raven.

To me it, indicates cunning (raven), mobility (birdies), and grace (white)

It probably comes from a thread of abilities that either have to do with Charge or Movement.
 

xAndurilx said:
I like the name White Raven.

To me it, indicates cunning (raven), mobility (birdies), and grace (white)

It probably comes from a thread of abilities that either have to do with Charge or Movement.

albino.jpg
 

Lizard said:
Really, the reason we have Color Animal Power naming is, based on previous comments by designers, to make it easier for players to find optimal builds without having to read the rules, understand them,and find patterns of powers which fit together. Instead of discovering combos organically, players just pick powers beginning with 'White Raven' (or whatever) to build their master of tactics. "No rules mastery!" is a mantra of 4e.

Speaking of baggage-laden things.... :uhoh:

First, I really like the idea of moving away from requiring "Rules Mastery". It's what makes the game feel elitist and insular, and discourages new players from trying to play because of the seemingly daunting task of first achieving rules mastery before you can sit down and play with people who have achieved that mastery.

Second, there is a good reason to use this naming protocol that has nothing to do with your suggested motivations.

Mechanically if you use a theme in the names then you can also (and this is important, and remains ignored so far) have additional powers/abilities/feats/spells/whatever that gives a benefit or change to all powers you have with that name in it.

So, for example, lets say you have a White Raven themed set of powers. One White Raven power lets you get +1 damage when you flank, and another White Raven power let's you give someone else a +1 attack bonus when they flank, and both have "White Raven" in the name. Now there is a feat released, "White Raven Power Boost" or whatever, that says "add +1 to any bonus granted by all of your White Raven powers". That is something easily done if you follow this naming protocol. There are other ways to do it, but this is one of the better methods in my opinion.

To demonstrate what happens when you don't do this, take the 3.5 Eberron feat "Song of the Heart". That feat says:

When you use inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics, any bonus granted by your music increases by +1. Thus, a 15th-level bard with this feat grants his allies a +4 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear when he uses inspire courage, rather than the +3 he would normally grant. If he uses inspire greatness, the same bard grants up to three allies 3 bonus Hit Dice, a +3 bonus on attack rolls, and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves.
Also, when you use fascinate, suggestion, or mass suggestion, the saving throw DC increases by 1.
If you have the Haunting Melody feat, the saving throw DC for that effect also increases by 1. If you have the Music of Growth feat, the bonus bestowed by that feat increases to +6. If you have the Music of Making feat, the bonus on Craft checks bestowed by that feat increases to +6. If you have the Soothe the Beast feat, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your Perform check to improve the attitude of an animal or magical beast.

That's a mess of text, three paragraphs long, mostly devoted to spelling out in fine detail exactly what powers gain a benefit from this feat. And, if/when a new feat or power comes out after that book, the feat doesn't apply to them even if it probably should have given the theme.

If WOTC had instead made sure all those feats and powers and spells and such had the word "Muse" in the title (for example), then the feat could have read: "When you use a Muse power, any bonus granted by your Muse power increases by +1." Simple, elegant, covers both past and future books, and doesn't take up half a page of text.

That is something most easily done by the naming protocol, and it's got nothing at all to do with the motives you have attributed to it.
 
Last edited:

Lizard said:
You misspelled 'angry'.
Oh, come on. You know that warning I gave earlier about verbal repartee that happened to specifically address Hong? It turns out those posting guidelines apply to everyone.

Please keep that in mind when you post.
 

Mistwell said:
Speaking of baggage-laden things.... :uhoh:

First, I really like the idea of moving away from requiring "Rules Mastery". It's what makes the game feel elitist and insular, and discourages new players from trying to play because of the seemingly daunting task of first achieving rules mastery before you can sit down and play with people who have achieved that mastery.

It also mandates the game be simplified...or, worse, that is be exposed to Gross Munchkinry because the designers didn't look for combos outside their carefully delineated boxes. ("Hey guys...if someone take Purple Monkey Overpass and combines it with Laughing Hippo Umbrella, they can kill anything in the game." "But...but...why would someone pick abilities from two *different* builds?")

By "rules mastery", I do not mean "Find the secret hidden sucky rules". I mean the idea that the rules are a set of cool lego blocks, and you get to assemble them as you wish...not just in accordance with someone else's idea of how they should fit together. From what I've seen of 4e, the emphasis on making sure you can't suck has led to a situation where you also can't excel, or even stand out as different or unique. (Still waitin' on them thar multiclassin' rules...)

Second, there is a good reason to use this naming protocol that has nothing to do with your suggested motivations.

If WOTC had instead made sure all those feats and powers and spells and such had the word "Muse" in the title (for example), then the feat could have read: "When you use a Muse power, any bonus granted by your Muse power increases by +1." Simple, elegant, covers both past and future books, and doesn't take up half a page of text.

Sure, and in 3x, you had major steps that way with things like monster types (Remember when 'Charm Person' in 1e had to explicitly list each monster which was a 'person'), spell schools and categories (Constructs are immune to mind-affecting spells) and so on. So, prithee, tell me why 'tactical', 'combat maneuver', 'ally-affecting', or some other setting-neutral, flavor neutral, tag would not be preferable to 'white raven'? It would be superior in many ways, not the least of which would be not saddling a character with a name that might not fit their world/background/style. (And we get back to the problem with 'just change the name' -- if I decide some maneuvers of the White Raven School are actually taught by the Generals Of the Grand Academy, and some are known as 'Skirmishers Secrets', then when WOTC publishes "+1 to all White Raven moves", I have to go and remind players which moves they have that this now applies to (especially if those schools in my universe apply to moves outside the White Raven list) -- and god help anyone who *liked* the idea of the 'white raven school' and applied the name to other manuevers he thought fit the theme!) ("Hey, my character has 'White Raven Lindy Hop', does he get +1 with it?" "No, because it used to just be Lindy Hop, so it doesn't count.")
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top