White Wolf can take their Web Extras & Shove it!
- Thread starter Vraille Darkfang
- Start date
Imaro said:
It's a double standard, but that doesn't mean that the company didn't make a mistake. But looking back, it would do to keep a sense of proportion about *how* big a mistake it is. I mean, the guy who started the thread just said he liked most of the book except for two pages: one with the web extras index and one referring to the web product for a single monster variant. It's a bit extreme to get worked up about this.
In WW's shoes, I probably would have presented *some* free content until the extra material reached a critical level, then spun the rest into a product. Or I would have combined overflow material from several sources into the kinds of overflow books WW used to do. That's not as defensible except on the grounds that I always liked those "kitchen sink" releases for other lines.
Being disingenuous makes customers unhappy. While it may garner you a couple of sales based on people who paid $40 and want the content to work, they have to pay the other $4, I'm even more skeptical, personally, of White Wolf products and am even less likely to purchase.
I dont expect something for nothing, I ask to be treated with respect, companies that dont respect me, and my time/money and behave in a manner that suggests they are trying to sneak money out of my pocket get nothing. Or less than nothing. Some get actively lampooned on message boards.
I dont expect something for nothing, I ask to be treated with respect, companies that dont respect me, and my time/money and behave in a manner that suggests they are trying to sneak money out of my pocket get nothing. Or less than nothing. Some get actively lampooned on message boards.
Campbell said:
Vraille said:
This is counter to your statement. Why should I have to pay $4 to find out about the monster on page 16? Are you also trying to blow snow in my eyes? Or is Vraille making this part up?
I believe the argument is made, and I believe from what I have read, White Wolf made a mistake. Saying sorry would be a much smarter business move than continuing to try and blow smoke and cloud the issue, as though consumers have no idea whats going on.
Since a large volume of publishers read these boards, and I bet this thread, let me be clear. RPG gamers are among the smartest hobbyists I know of, as a group. First being disingenuous, and then insulting my intelligence by suggesting you werent disingenuous, and then trying to throw it back at the customer as though somehow it was their fault, will not only not garner you more sales, it will severely curtail your business. There is lots of product on the market, and only so far I'll stretch my entertainment dollar, its no sweat for me to stop buying White Wolf product. Or Mongoose product. Or Green Ronin product, or even WOTC product.
The smart businessman, when he makes a mistake, says, "Wow, I'm sorry, when part A was written we thought it was free, but then x happened, the editors didnt know to change that, and I am SO SORRY. We, as a company, will not do this again." and then he backs it up by NOT DOING IT AGAIN. The smart businessman doesnt try to say it wasnt a mistake, its just the customer is stupid. That results in FURTHER lost business.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
Seeten said:
I also believe that it was a mistake, particularly that reference on page 16, but I also believe that the book is far from useless without the web material. They should have been clearly stated that the material wasn't free, but I don't see anything malicious about it. I just don't see this as that big of a deal.
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Other consumers see it as a big deal. That makes it a big deal.
I'll tell you, and publishers, a secret though, "Making it right" wins customers for life. Your first "mistake" is your first opportunity. If you rectify it, you build customer loyalty. If you insult, or poo-poo it and make the customer unhappy, you lose the customer permanently. This is marketing 101.
Example: My mom and heating oil. Same company 5 years, no problems, no errors, a better deal came along, and she took it. No loyalty built up, they did their job, she paid. New company made a mistake in the first year. They gave the wrong amount of oil, overcharged. She called up, furious because A) she had no oil, and B) had paid for a full tank, and got a quarter tank. They sent a truck immediately, apologized, and gave her a free months oil.
The original company called her about coming back, and offered her a better price than the company that made the mistake, she said no. Her reason? "If something goes wrong, I know Company B will do the right thing. I dont know what Company A will do, so I'll stick with B." Its 12 years later, and they still have her business, thru thick and thin.
So while you may think it doesnt matter, or it isnt a big deal, it is.
I'll tell you, and publishers, a secret though, "Making it right" wins customers for life. Your first "mistake" is your first opportunity. If you rectify it, you build customer loyalty. If you insult, or poo-poo it and make the customer unhappy, you lose the customer permanently. This is marketing 101.
Example: My mom and heating oil. Same company 5 years, no problems, no errors, a better deal came along, and she took it. No loyalty built up, they did their job, she paid. New company made a mistake in the first year. They gave the wrong amount of oil, overcharged. She called up, furious because A) she had no oil, and B) had paid for a full tank, and got a quarter tank. They sent a truck immediately, apologized, and gave her a free months oil.
The original company called her about coming back, and offered her a better price than the company that made the mistake, she said no. Her reason? "If something goes wrong, I know Company B will do the right thing. I dont know what Company A will do, so I'll stick with B." Its 12 years later, and they still have her business, thru thick and thin.
So while you may think it doesnt matter, or it isnt a big deal, it is.
Imaro
Legend
Seeten said:
My understanding is that the "Wind Serpent" and all it's variants we're removed from the book as one of the creatures found in the "web extra". So the book mentioning the creature doesn't force you to buy the supplement unless you want to use that creature and it's variants. If that's the case you know where it's at.
Once again I reiterate that I don't really have strong feelings about this, in my mind it's WW's perogative to charge or not to charge unless they explicitly state it's free. YMMV but like I said earlier, I have a bigger problem with paying for a product that is flawed(meaning the actually book content I paid for) rules-wise or error-ridden or without an index than I do with a company that gives me a complete product but decides to sell the material that was cut from it. I got what I paid for and if it was edited out I wasn't going to get it in the book anyway. They aren't forcing me to spend my money, and nothing I've heard so far indicates anything in the book is unuseable or incomplete without the web extra.
It's funny to me how many posters are outraged by this but don't feel you are entitled to corrections for rules, material etc. that you actually paid for.
Imaro said:
I'm not outraged by White Wolf so much as I am by the attitudes of the people defending their behaviour. I'll reserve my opinion on White Wolf till I hear their response. Fanboys excusing them while calling other people stupid make me not respect their opinion, however, so if their goal is to defend the company, they'd be best served by letting a WW rep walk in and say, "We are sorry for the confusion, and this wont happen again", or, come in and flame, and allow the matter to be properly settled.
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