White Wolf can take their Web Extras & Shove it!

[eyebeams]

I don't misunderstand. I just didn't want to get into a protracted discussion about it, which is what these things usually devolve into.

Suffice it to say, I've had bad experiences with customer support on more than one occasion. I've received packages with missing material purchased direct from the company with no redress.

Well, I'd say you're entitled to a replacement or refund.

I've grown sick of slapdash game design and the aura of contempt for their customers that emanates from the company. Incidents like this are not isolated, and Pimp and the MET thing are simply a sampling of further actions that seem to label their customers as either marks or the enemy.

I don't know about "slapdash game design," especially when many of the people who hold sway over the court of opinion here often to not deign to actually play what they critique. As a Mage freelancer, I was always frustrated at the abstruse metaphysical critiques coming before more pressing issues -- like the fact that the basic die mechanic didn't work. Similarly, the build-obsessed Exalted-theory community rarely talks about the dice caps that are the lynchpin of Exalted splat and Charm design, despite the fact that these becomes an obviously big deal if you actually play Exalted for any length of time.

So the disconnect between designers and fans might be there, but it's more than matched by the disconnect between vocal fans and people who actually play the games. Heck, in this thread, the typical negative response seems to be "I don't buy their books, but now I really don't buy their books!" We're not exactly talked about a lost opportunity in that case, are we?

Fortunately, communities like Shadownessence and Pissedoffgamers exist to serve a more vital WW player base than more general interest RPG communities.

White Wolf occasionally has some brilliant stuff. Adventure! is still one of my favorite games. I've heard nothing but praise for them from freelancers who do work for them. Amongst other things, I hear that they almost always pay their freelancers, which is a depressingly rare case in this industry. I also really like the look of their new web adventure products, as the format seems really cool and actually innovative. However, as a customer I'm overall left with a foul taste in my mouth from my years of dealing with the company.

Me, I consider paying people for the work they do a basic precondition for my patronage. Apropos of nothing in particular but this point, I've had some dealings with FanPro that have left me feeling really positive about that company.

 

[RedFox]

I don't know about "slapdash game design," especially when many of the people who hold sway over the court of opinion here often to not deign to actually play what they critique. As a Mage freelancer, I was always frustrated at the abstruse metaphysical critiques coming before more pressing issues -- like the fact that the basic die mechanic didn't work. Similarly, the build-obsessed Exalted-theory community rarely talks about the dice caps that are the lynchpin of Exalted splat and Charm design, despite the fact that these becomes an obviously big deal if you actually play Exalted for any length of time.

I'll cop to that. Edge cases and read-don't-play discussions don't interest me anymore, but they're admittedly prevelant.

In my case, however, I've run and played in numerous White Wolf games. The only one I didn't have a problem with was Adventure! but it's also the game I've the least actual-play experience with.

The problems I encounter in-play most frequently are lack of consistency (mainly in minimum competency results in the ST system) and an uneven distribution of rules coverage that often has me scratching my head. If I had to pull out an example, I'd pick on Appearance. As an Attribute, it was woefully lacking in mechanical application or representation compared to other Attributes in all but one game (again, Adventure! which had the brilliant idea of linked abilities that didn't show up anywhere else).

But this threatens to derail the thread entirely, which was really about White Wolf's underhanded practice of the day.

 

[Professor Phobos]

But this threatens to derail the thread entirely, which was really about White Wolf's underhanded practice of the day.

I'm really not seeing the underhandedness. I mean, I understand the OP being disappointed, but no where did White Wolf ever establish that "web extra" meant "free", so making that assumption is more on the OP than on WW being "underhanded." It'd be underhanded if they somehow deceived him into paying for something when he didn't intend to.

 

[Corinth]

This is nothing that can't be solved by waiting a bit and then downloading it for free in PDF format from a peer-to-peer filesharing network.

 

[RedFox]

I'm really not seeing the underhandedness. I mean, I understand the OP being disappointed, but no where did White Wolf ever establish that "web extra" meant "free", so making that assumption is more on the OP than on WW being "underhanded." It'd be underhanded if they somehow deceived him into paying for something when he didn't intend to.

I disagree. "Web extra" is common parlance for "free online material." Furthermore, at no point did White Wolf mention that the "web extra" was a for-pay product. That's deceptive, pure and simple.

 

[Yair]

I disagree. "Web extra" is common parlance for "free online material." Furthermore, at no point did White Wolf mention that the "web extra" was a for-pay product. That's deceptive, pure and simple.

QFT

 

[jeffh]

I disagree. "Web extra" is common parlance for "free online material." Furthermore, at no point did White Wolf mention that the "web extra" was a for-pay product. That's deceptive, pure and simple.

Not to mention the use of the word "bonus".

 

[Mort]

This is nothing that can't be solved by waiting a bit and then downloading it for free in PDF format from a peer-to-peer filesharing network.

Other than the fact that that's illegal and a practice that shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[carmachu]

I think it's rather premature to ascribe some kind of deceptive intent. It's not like WW can trick someone into using their Paypal account or credit card, and -- and I mention this to remind people of what we're talking about here -- I doubt that a non-applicable index and a reference to a monster totaling perhaps two pages has a decisive effect on the quality of the product. The originator of the thread also said the other 99% of the book was worth it.

When you say there is web extras to a product, adn DONT say they cost extra till you get there in your adverts, thats wrong. Thats misleading. It implies no exra cost. Thats pretty standard as most people

Simpling adding the words web extras that we couldnt fit in at a nominal fee is what they SHOULD have done.

Otherwise your just wrong. Its completely misleading. If someone were to BUY the product, because they were lead to believe there were some web extras included in the product, thats misleading.

It has nothing to with whether the product is good or not. I didnt say it was a BAD product at all, nor do I know if its a good product as the originator of the thread said.. I just said the way WW worded the web extras was misleading and dirty pool. And it is.

 

[Thurbane]

I'm really not seeing the underhandedness. I mean, I understand the OP being disappointed, but no where did White Wolf ever establish that "web extra" meant "free", so making that assumption is more on the OP than on WW being "underhanded." It'd be underhanded if they somehow deceived him into paying for something when he didn't intend to.

I have to disagree here - if you use a buzzword like "Web Extra", which is widely accepted by the community and in the industry as meaning "addition free material available for download", and then designate that the user pay for it, it is exptremely poor form, if not downright underhanded. Couple that with the fact that some of the material in the book is incomplete without said "web extras", and you can't help but expect a fair amount of customer dissatisfaction about the whole thing...