White Wolf can take their Web Extras & Shove it!

RedFox said:
I disagree. "Web extra" is common parlance for "free online material." Furthermore, at no point did White Wolf mention that the "web extra" was a for-pay product. That's deceptive, pure and simple.

Is it? According to who?

I recall every game book I own that mentions another product has never said it was for pay; this was just assumed. We've grown accustomed to online material being free, but times have changed.

And, to what end was this deception? What did White Wolf get out of it?

I can see it being kind of stupid on their part to have confusing terms, but I don't see what possible reason they'd have for this deception. What did White Wolf gain from "duping" the OP?

You're ascribing malice when foolishness fits the facts much better.
 

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Professor Phobos said:
Is it? According to who?

I recall every game book I own that mentions another product has never said it was for pay; this was just assumed. We've grown accustomed to online material being free, but times have changed.

And, to what end was this deception? What did White Wolf get out of it?

You're ascribing malice when foolishness fits the facts much better.

They call it variously "Web Extra" & "Bonus Material". The other WoW "Web Extra" is free.

I'd call that a reasonalbe assumption that "Free" is defintly implied.

In fact the Thread on the WW Forum (Which I having problems finding now), seems to indicate as much from a guy who worked on the product.

To day WW intentionally misled people into thinking they were getting a Free Web Bonus & leading them into paying 4 bucks is applying way too much foresight on their end.

After all, if you follow the procedure for downloading the Web Stuff as detailed in the book, you just get hacked off because it isn't there.

I'm pretty sure this is a case where someone at WW decided they couldn't give it away for free or thought they could make extra cash off it. I'm guessing the later, as 4 Bucks is a bit steep to just cover bandwidth costs.

After the book got sent to the printer, some guy decided they needed to charge for it, but then decided to completly ignore the entier consumer base as to the changed status.

No, little link, syaing "Sorry, but we have to charge for this" No "I know we told you 6 times to go here to find the Web Extras, but it's not here since we are chargin for it now".

WW changed their minds.

And forgot to tell anybody about it. (When I last checked they still hadn't told anyone about it).

That's what really bugs me. Basic Business sense tells you to be proactive in these sorts of things.

Am I surprised by WW? Not really, this seemed to by the standard they were using when I gamed WW regularly...

But that was 7 years ago, I thought they may have changed (and most of my knowledge was second hand anyway).
 

Professor Phobos said:
You're ascribing malice when foolishness fits the facts much better.

I'd say it was something like that. What's most likely is that it was developed under the assumption that there'd just be a small amount of extra material that the company would put up on their website, but when it went into production, layout just couldn't squeeze all that material in, or there was a budgetary reason to reduce the page count. Production quickly added an additional index and sent it off.

Why? Because this is the way books are actually put together, as opposed to imagining some kind of bizarre marketing strategy is in the offing. And speaking of that, that motive doesn't even make any sense because the product catalog listing does not in fact mention web extras of any kind. In other words, to have any idea that there's the chance of additional content of any kind, you have to actually open the book.

And again, we get to the issue that the web content is literally unrelated to over 99% of the content of the print release. Actually, we're talking about somewhere between 1/115th and 1/120th of the print release being the point of contention.

Based on the MSRP White Wolf sure ripped this guy off -- for about 35 cents US based on wasted page count due to web references.

Just remember: This entire discussion is about 35 cents worth of product.
 

eyebeams said:
And again, we get to the issue that the web content is literally unrelated to over 99% of the content of the print release. Actually, we're talking about somewhere between 1/115th and 1/120th of the print release being the point of contention.

Based on the MSRP White Wolf sure ripped this guy off -- for about 35 cents US based on wasted page count due to web references.

Just remember: This entire discussion is about 35 cents worth of product.

No, it's not. It's about a lot of things. It's about wasting 15 minutes of the original poster's time; assuming he flips burgers, that's at least a buck. It's about annoying and deceiving the buyer, which is hard to put a price on. It's about making it known to the world that WW is less than careful about being honest, which is worth who knows how many books to WW. (Honestly, how many of us are going to look at a WW book advertised with a web extra and trust them again?)
 

prosfilaes said:
No, it's not. It's about a lot of things. It's about wasting 15 minutes of the original poster's time; assuming he flips burgers, that's at least a buck.

If one were quite so picky about wasted time, I submit that there are a hell of a lot of people to hold accountable before you go to some game company in Georgia. That old guy in the hat (it's always an old guy in a hat, isn't it?) who drove below the limit in front of you the other day, for instance.

About a week back, this woman in a fur coat dressed down the guy working checkout in the fast lane, even though she herself had more than the permitted number of items. And I'll be damned if I can stand XP boot times on a non-optimized machine. And these are only the items that whisk me ever closer to my mortal end where I *didn't* get to choose -- unlike, say, whether to buy some RPG book.

It's about annoying and deceiving the buyer, which is hard to put a price on.

You keep conjugating the word "deceive" as if there's a chortling man wringing his hands about the possibility of absconding with 15 minutes and 35 cents. There isn't. There's just a production staff trying to meet deadlines within the specifications set by a print service. You assume malice that not only doesn't exist, but is actually pretty ridiculous if you give it any thought.

At some point, you have to accept that organizations occasionally make mistakes and that this is the doom of man until our businesses are run by AI god-rulers, assuming they don't exterminate us in a Bill Joy-esque posthuman apocalypse. (Google: "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us" for details.)

Plus, of course, the fact is that the argument about the web bits as a promotion is a total red herring. It isn't advertised as a feature of the book. Go and check the catalog entry for yourself. One would have to have the book in hand, which makes it rather unlikely that a bit of web content of unknown length would be the prime motive in a purchasing decision.

It's about making it known to the world that WW is less than careful about being honest, which is worth who knows how many books to WW.

Well, given that the original poster felt he got value for his money anyway and most of the other complainers already don't buy their books, make a realistic guess. If a hundred people who don't buy their books vow to not buy their books even more, what's the net change in revenue exactly?

On the other hand, I bet there are a fair chunk of people whose chief reaction was "What? There's a WoW RPG? Gadzooks Herman! Now I need never be without my dark elf in the event of a wattage disruption caused by Tesla's infernal alternating current! At last, someone has freed Azeroth from the jiggery-pokery of errant Babbage Thinking Engines!" Something like that. If only the complaints also had some quaint quasi-Victorian scientific romance element we could all similarly chortle and retreat to high tea.

(Honestly, how many of us are going to look at a WW book advertised with a web extra and trust them again?)

This thread isn't about an *advertised* web extra in the first place. The WoW monster book's catalog entry doesn't say anything about it. You can only find out it exists by either cracking open the physical product or seeing the supplement for sale at DTRPG, price tag proudly displayed. It has to be the most slack-tastic, inefficient scheme to Nefariously Part the Gamer from His Rough Third of a Dollar I've ever read. Then again, one doesn't read about arguable larceny on this scale often.
 
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Corinth said:
This is nothing that can't be solved by waiting a bit and then downloading it for free in PDF format from a peer-to-peer filesharing network.


EN World does not allow or condone the practice of copyright infringement. Please, everyone, do not use these forums to advocate illegal activities.
 

I'm sorry, I noticed af ew comments about pimp ( i take it pimp the backhanding) on here. What happened there? I have been more or less mad that I can not find it in stores and had to special order it.
 

Professor Phobos said:
You're ascribing malice when foolishness fits the facts much better.

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" Hanlon's Razor.

For those interested in the exact quote :lol:

Without having read the exact text myself, it's difficult to determine whether or not this is in fact merely stupidity or fraudulent. What is true is that the term "Web enchancement" and "web bonus" is generally interpreted by the gaming community as meaing free, and this interpretation has been reinforced not only on the WW site in the past, but almost every other publisher site. Therefore, to use the term "web enchancement' to reference fee-based product is at best flawed, and at worst potentially a bait-and-switch.

A certain major department store had some problems a few years ago when they use to do a lot of special packages that said "Buy One, Get One Free." You've seen the shirk-wrapped special packages of soup, cereal, and such. Well one day someone looked at the price of a single item, looked at the price of the BOGO, and realized it wasn't technically getting one free. The BOGO was a lot cheaper than buying two, but when you actually stopped and did the math, it was NOT getting one free.

The store argued that the BOGO was based off of the retail price the products were generally sold for at other stores. However, since they don't actually sell most products at the retail price, that the consumer was simply confused.

(to clarify--If an item retailed for $5, the BOGO was priced at $5. But if this particular store actually sold the item in question for $4.50, the BOGO was actually Buy one at $4.50, get the other for .50.).

The court ruled that since the customer could make a reasonable assumption that the buy one/get one free price should be based off of the price the item sold for and not the listed retail price. The department store lost. Today, when you visit said store, you will not find products listed as "Buy One/Get One Free." They are listed as "Bonus Packs".

The moral of the story is that the courts often rule as to "what a reasonable person" would assume in cases where the intent is not entirely clear. As WW did not explicitly say these specific web enchancements were fee based, and as most such enchancements are in fact free, a reasonable person would assume this specific enchancement would be free. At least, if one was so inclined, one could make the arguement.

But legalities aside, the Court of Public Opinion is more of a threat to a company than the Court of Law. WW has already had a host of poor PR incidents over the years, and this only adds fuel to the fire. None of which I think were deliberately malicious, but merely poorly executed ideas. When you have too many of these incidents, people are less inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.

First there was the whole fiction contest incident, when they had five or ten "anonymous" winners, even though the guidelines clearly stated that by participating you granted WW the right to post your name and such on the winner's list. They later claimed that they were protecting people's privacy, but because their own guidelines had said otherwise, people assumed they just reneged on awarding 100 prizes. Then the whole Camarilla fiasco. The theory was fine, that it you wanted to profit off the LARP you should license the material. But the execution was such that it appeared that they were trying to charge people to play the game. Then the Pimp situation, in which they seemed to forget that they have a huge female gamer base and even many male players found the whole thing over-the-top. So then along comes what might otherwise be a nuisance of a fee-based web enhancement. Were it not for all of the other screw ups, the general response might have been "Man, I should have read that better" and left it at that. But because of WW's history, the immediate feeling is that people were screwed over on purpose in order to milk a few extra dollars. The truth becomes unimportant.

"The customer is always right" is not just a motto. It is a statement of truth. However, what many companies fail to understand is what that sentence actually means. It is not that the customer cannot be wrong. It means that if the customer IS wrong, it is because you failed to properly inform the customer of the facts. The customer is always right, because the customer's view of the matter is shaped by the way you present the information. If you use language that the typical customer would assume refers to free products, then the customer is RIGHT to assume they should get something for free. In this case, WW failed to properly communicate exactly what they were offering, and as such the customer is right to be upset about it.
 

eyebeams said:
Just remember: This entire discussion is about 35 cents worth of product.

Again, no its not. Its all about how you treat your customer base. A bit badly in this case. No one here would care, IF WW had stated you had to pay for it, that they were up front about it.

But WW didnt. Whether they changed their mind or forgot to post it or did it on purpose, it really doesnt matter. When you advertise things in a certain manner, and they turn out completely different, it really doesnt matter the COST, what matters is how your treated as a customer. And in this case, it isnt right. The price doesnt matter.
 

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