White Wolf can take their Web Extras & Shove it!

[hong]

White Wolf: the Sony of RPGs?

 

[Professor Phobos]

Folks, most people are here to talk about a game called Dungeons and Dragons not Mountains and Molehills.

I suggest we take a deep breath. I used to deride the Albino Fleabag with the best of them, but WW's been very good lately. They deserve lots of credit for improving their act tremendously from the dark days of the mid-90s.

 

[eyebeams]

But WW didnt. Whether they changed their mind or forgot to post it or did it on purpose, it really doesnt matter. When you advertise things in a certain manner, and they turn out completely different, it really doesnt matter the COST, what matters is how your treated as a customer. And in this case, it isnt right. The price doesnt matter.

Except, of course, they didn't advertise it. They stuck a note and an index in the book.

This kind of thing happens all the time, with multiple companies. I can sift through about 20 years of RPGs on my shelves and give you a whole bunch of promised products that were never released, newsletters that never got mailed and a whole panoply of promises that were made but for one reason or another, couldn't be followed through. One thing I can't easily do is find an instance where any of this was done in a cynical attempt to screw the customer out of value for the money he or she *actually* paid. Not theoretical money that one might have to pay.

The fact is that companies should respond to reasonable grievances. The grievance about the phrasing is reasonable. The reaction? Not so reasonable. And there's nothing any company can do to satisfy people with unreasonable responses.

If you go over the the WW boards, you'll see a reasonable response: an apology for the mixup and an explanation of what's going on. There's a difference between that and the way things are represented here, as a noble struggle for the priceless integrity of the human spirit.

 

[carmachu]

White Wolf: the Sony of RPGs?

Or GamesWorkshop.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The fact is that companies should respond to reasonable grievances. The grievance about the phrasing is reasonable. The reaction? Not so reasonable. And there's nothing any company can do to satisfy people with unreasonable responses.

The reaction is "White Wolf didn't do what they implied". Perfectly reasonable to the buying public.

If you go over the the WW boards, you'll see a reasonable response: an apology for the mixup and an explanation of what's going on. There's a difference between that and the way things are represented here, as a noble struggle for the priceless integrity of the human spirit.

It was presented here as an irksome event, not a world shattering event. Almost everyone agree's that it was a story of incompetence more than malice, but I don't see that making a big difference.

And really, if White Wolf admits it was an error, the easiest and best thing would simply be to change the product to the Bonus it was supposed to be. Will they lose a few hundred bucks, sure, but the customer would get what they were represented as getting.

If they've done that in the thread you mention, kudo's for them, if not it's just more empty apologies. I didn't look for the thread so can't judge it. Either way I think you're blowing it out of proportion. It's easy enough to counter "they are theives" with "it was a simple misunderstanding", rather than attacking those with a valid complaint and minimizing what happened.

 

[SteveC]

I think there are really two things going on here: first, there seems to be a growing attitude that "web extras" should no longer be free: they should be separate purchases.

I can't disagree more with this practice. As RPG products become more and more expensive, one of the things that can motivate me to purchase a particular product is strong online support for it, typically in the form of a web enhancement. Am I "entitled" to this, of course not, but it can affect whether or not I purchase product that I was on the fence about.

One of the things that attracted my to early Necromancer Games products was their amazing web extras: The Crucible of Freya had a web enhancement that was essentially a mini campaign setting, and I ran it for months. That PDF encouraged me to buy more of their early products. Ditto with Fiery Dragon and NeMoren's Vault.

So if you take the content that I might have purchased the initial product for and charge for it on top of the original product, I'm unlikely to buy either item, assuming it wasn't a product that I was initially very interested in.

The second thing about this issue is that it's basically a screw-up by White Wolf. Was there some malice involved here? I seriously doubt it. I think the decision to charge for web extras is a bad one, but it's not something illegal or unethical. I'm sure the decision to charge for the extra was simply made after the book went to print. What should the company do in this case? I'd say they should eat it, and release the content for free. Treat this as a cheap lesson on changing one of their business practices in the middle of creating a product. Future products should have a notation about "bonus material available for sale at whitewolf.com").

The reason I say this is not because I think the gaming community "deserves" it, but rather because this is the kind of screw up that generates a lot of bad press (at best) or generates a lawsuit (at worst). The amount of money we're talking about here is so modest, and the potential good will that could be generated is high.

Just my $.02.

--Steve

 

[Seeten]

Folks, most people are here to talk about a game called Dungeons and Dragons not Mountains and Molehills.

I suggest we take a deep breath. I used to deride the Albino Fleabag with the best of them, but WW's been very good lately. They deserve lots of credit for improving their act tremendously from the dark days of the mid-90s.

Again, I'd feel better if I heard "Sorry" than I feel about this sort of proselytizing about how customers are stupid and deserve to be mistreated.

As an adult, I recommend companies dont treat intelligent adults this way, or you risk the consequences.

 

[carmachu]

If they've done that in the thread you mention, kudo's for them, if not it's just more empty apologies. I didn't look for the thread so can't judge it. Either way I think you're blowing it out of proportion. It's easy enough to counter "they are theives" with "it was a simple misunderstanding", rather than attacking those with a valid complaint and minimizing what happened.

Or change the advertising to reflex the reality. If it says extra or bonus material and no price, its still misleading. If they change it to extra material that didnt make it for only $4 available....its still fine.

It just needs to say what it is. Either say Bonus or say extra at cost.

 

[carmachu]

I think there are really two things going on here: first, there seems to be a growing attitude that "web extras" should no longer be free: they should be separate purchases.

I can't disagree more with this practice. As RPG products become more and more expensive, one of the things that can motivate me to purchase a particular product is strong online support for it, typically in the form of a web enhancement. Am I "entitled" to this, of course not, but it can affect whether or not I purchase product that I was on the fence about.

I personally dont care whether some are or are not free. All a person wants is to KNOW whether it is or not,a nd want the company to be up front about it.

The original author would have bought the book regardless. Someone else, like your self, might find the free extra to be that final insentive to buy the book, like some necromancy products. Irregardless, it should be advertised as its suppose to be.

Its like going to a resturant and the waitress saying a dinner "comes with" a sald, only to find out later its actually an extra charge. Not whether its done on purpose or the waitress made an honest mistake in brining it up really doesnt matter. Its how its presented, and how its rectified. And that doesnt mean WW should give it away free either.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Or change the advertising to reflex the reality. If it says extra or bonus material and no price, its still misleading. If they change it to extra material that didnt make it for only $4 available....its still fine.

It just needs to say what it is. Either say Bonus or say extra at cost.

But, the questionable "ad" is in the book, they're not going to be able to change what's in the book. The only way to sync would be alter the price. At the very least they should put the webpage where the book says to go, and explain the situation there, perhaps deciding which of the info should have been included and which is good to charge for. (Introducing a new monster type but requiring you to pay for the type itself seems odd for instance.)