White Wolf can take their Web Extras & Shove it!

[eyebeams]

Exactly. What White Wolf said the license was for, and how the license actually read were two different things.

What the license said was that if you collect any money from your players, you are expected to pay them. So, if, like us, you collect money to cover expenses for a website, or like others who cover costs for location, or heck, even gathering money for pizza... White Wolf gets a slice.

Sure, no one would actually do it, and they couldn't really enforce it (hence it being withdrawn, too much backlash for too little return), but that they would try it says a lot about their business practices.

Actually, this is what is says about the business practices:

A nonprofit organization by the name of the Camarilla (not to be confused with the current club) took money for services it advertised and didn't provide, then attempted to block White Wolf's use of their own intellectual property by registering ownership of the name "Camarilla" in Utah and beginning court proceedings against the company. The NPO Camarilla was willing to destroy the Vampire IP for the sake of running its own organization. In other words, the group purporting to be the official Vampire: The Masquerade fan club tried to block the production, sales and promotion of Vampire products.

This all happened because White Wolf behaved in exactly the opposite fashion you are asserting. The company assumed good faith and avoided resorting to the law, and a group of their fans responded by trying to wreck company operations and claim ownership of one of its trademarks. And to follow up, the Camarilla also asserted ownership of its MET variant.

White Wolf won in the end (the NPO didn't have enough money to have its bluff called), but there were multiple instances of fallout. One of these was the attempted licensing agreement, which was designed to avoid anything like this from ever happening again. You can also thank the Utah NPO for curtailed releases from the Mage: The Sorcerer's Crusade and Changeling, as the litigation cost WW a non-trivial sum.

The license was certainly a blunder, but then again, the fanbase is technically in a worse legal position without it. The friends you are afraid would theoretically have to pay money but practically never would are now theoretically subject to severe civil penalties if they end up with any profit -- even the "beer and chips for the ST crew" kind. So what this boils down to is much sound and fury about a bad idea that would have had no effect on the majority of its opponents.

Actually, it would have had one effect: Anybody who paid would get all of the bennies of WW's fan membership, including 20% off all products, without being required to participate in its LARP network. Oh, the oppression! The horrible, horrible oppression!

 

[eyebeams]

Are you telling me you don't understand that Necromancer and Malhavoc were only published by WW, all creative control and creative decisions were made by the individuals that own Necromancer (Bill Webb and Clark Peterson) and Malhavoc (Monte Cook).

No, I'm talking about Arthaus, which is effectively a WW brand. I don't even know if it's separately incorporated or not.

WW has done some very dumb things. Sometimes they do the wrong thing for the right reason (the MET license), and sometimes they just do something totally dumb (like Pimp). But when you buy anything from WW, you can be reasonably sure that the people who worked on it were paid and actually know that their work was used and printed. You'd be surprised how rare this is.

Otherwise, don't assume malice behind occasional errors from a hard-working staff in a small office.

 

[Darkness]

Literally. Did you hear the news recently on that grocery store chain that will soon be charging its customers 5 cents per plastic bag used to bag any groceries bought?

They also offer a 59 cent "deal" for a reusable bag that looks like a fancily folded blue tarp. :\

Welcome to my world. (Although around here it's most grocery stores and bags cost, like, 3 times the price you mentioned. IIRC; I normally bring my own bag.)

 

[RedFox]

It's the decision of the savvy and informed consumer not to buy anything White Wolf sells.

 

[Doghead Thirteen]

Um, White Wolf = Bunch of smegheads who don't know overblown if they're slapped in the face with it.
WoW = Valid reason to loathe all MMORGs. This is computer game suckiness defined, peeps.
Both = Caution. Avoid.

Seriously, White Wolf are doing WoW stuff and you're surprised that it's a pile of lame money-grabbing charge-per-view crud? Oh come on, what do you expect?

 

[Mark CMG]

Well, yeah, but what are they gonna carry the bags with, huh? Huh, smart guy?

I hope the shoulder straps aren't extra(s).

 

[eyebeams]

It's the decision of the savvy and informed consumer not to buy anything White Wolf sells.

I note you're an Exalted wikieditor on WW's site.

Ah, here we are:

http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/RedFox

So aside from being a fan of one of their games and adding content to their site, what have *you* done to stop supporting White Wolf?

 

[Umbran]

So aside from being a fan of one of their games and adding content to their site, what have *you* done to stop supporting White Wolf?

I think it is time to remind all and sundry folks here that making discussion personal is a good way to get yourself shut out of the discussion entirely. The activities of your fellow members seems to be distinctly missing from the thread title and topic, and what folks may or may not have done in the past is not a solid measure of the validity of their position right now. So, please don't go there.

If you have a problem with not being allowed to make the discussion about the people here, please e-mail a moderator to discuss it.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Again,

I more annoyed than anything.

I picked it up, expecting to judge it as a Replacment to my WoW Manual of Monsters Book.

My initial judgement was wether it was worth spending 40 Bucks to replace a $30 Dollar Monster Book (I don't play WoW, I just like to have a lot of monsters to throw at my party).

I was pleasently surprised to see there was only 1/3rd or so overlap between the 2. (The Index has a bunch of the Original MoM Entries, they seem to have be reprinted in other WoW books already).

Full Color, complements (rather than replace) an existing book. Monsters seemed to stand on their own merit.

Overall, I very pleased with what I got. The Web "Extras" were just Extra Sprinkles on Top.

Thus, when I got home and spent 10 minutes trying to find the bleepin' Web Extras on WW's Website, I got frustrated.

Then, imagine my surprise, when I finally found it, or a Forum Thread detailing how WW wanted 4 bucks for it (as most of it was how SRD Animals fit into WoW, it wasn't worth my time to begin with, there was only a Handful of Creatures I really wanted.


Here is why I'm annoyed:

Page 6: Web Extras. Basically half a column detailing what got cut & where to find it. Tey call it "Web Extras" Not Additonal on-line only product.

Page 16: Cloud Serpent Special type of "Wind Serpent (see web extras)"

I can stop there to make my point.

the say "(see web extras)" EVERY other place they mention an ADDITIONAL Product, it is in BOLD LETTERS (Player' Guide, Lands of Mystery, etc). Tey go to great trouble to let you whenever an additonal book is referenced. Yet, the Web Extras is just throrwn in, like "no big deal, just download & print".

It's very deceptive. & that's what I have a problem with. Not that they feel they want to charge for a web exclusive. That they couched it in terms that had become industry stnadard to indicate free. That they didn't even follow their own guidelines used throughout the book, detailing references to other books you were going to have to pay for.

I'm going to call them on it.

I even think I know what happened.

1. The Appendix was supposed to be in the book (Book seems to indicate this).

2. As main Page count grew, something had to get cut. Animal Appendix was chosen. Work stopped at whatever point that was (Before Artwork was commissioned, apperently).

3. Writers, figure they'll just post it a a web enhancement (pretty standard industry fare).

4. At some point management steps in. They figure they've paid to develop the stuff, they need to charge for it. There's no way they are going to give something they've invested money in for free. We paid to develop, customers should pay to get it. (From 10+ years of friends who are big WoD Players, I know this is what happened. WW would charge people to watch a commercial, after all they did "Pay to develop it". WW has shown a tendancy to not get how advertising works (a lot of small business owners have no clue). Somebody at WW couldn't undestand why you'd give something away for free to people who've already bought the book, not realizing the real reason to have it free is to lure people into Downloading the Free Stuff, liking it & then going after the real thing).


Or one other possibility. The RPG Liscense they got for WoW prohibits giving stuff away for free (as other, free downloads exist for WoW, I doubt this).


As a Monster Book, I'm pleased with my purchase.

If I was planing on playing a WoW Game, being forced to lay out 4 bucks to know how normal animals fit into the world would tick me off.

In the end:

I am so not surprised WW took this step. Dissapointed, but far, far, far from surprised.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

There's a lot of interesting information here, for industry folks and fans alike.

The Extra Web Material for this book costs more money. I haven't bought the book yet, so that's a nice thing for me to know. I probably still will, since I like the rpg it's a suppliment for, but I doubt I'll buy the extra web material. Others mileage may vary.

There's a strong sense from some fans that they were not proberly informed the extra material cost extra money. As someone who sells things to consumers sometimes, I find this a useful datapoint. It also sounds like if the product has said "Plus, you can buy fully integrated additional material from the following website!" no one would have been upset. Also a useful datapoint.

There's a strong sense that different imprints within White Wolf may be considered differently by fans. I had always wondered if it was really worth it to have White Wolf, Sword & Sorcery and Arthaus have different labels. Now, I'm completely convinced it is.

I also see a lot of people actively dislike white Wolf. That doesn't surprise me, because every publisher I've ever worked with has had its fans and its detractors. Same of every game, and every author. That's totally cool -- fans should develop opinions about what they like and who they trust. It doesn't have any impact on me in this case, because nothing strikes me as universal. Right or wrong people disagree on these points, so it doesn't look that different from people complainign about WotC, or Mike Mearls, or SJGs.

If I had no experience with WW, I suppose I'd take it more seriously as a datapoint. I'd investigate some claims, in any case. But since my professional experience with WW was overwhelmingly positive, I'd work with them again in a heartbeat, current concerns from people notwithstanding.

Of course that doesn't matter much, since I haven't gotten even a hint that WW is interested in having me write for them currently. That's cool too. I am much better known for d20 than anything else, and WW isn't doing a whole lot of in-house d20 right now. I may even have a negative reputation with them -- my last few contacts were all about things reasonable people could disagree on, and somewhat strained.

But my opinion about the people actually making the decisions at WW, which is no better than anyone else's, is that they don't mean to take advantage of, or mislead, anyone. They seem to be honest people, who sometimes make calls they later regret. Again, just like everyone else I've dealt with. Companies in particular can have problems when differen people in different departments make decisions about a product without realizing they don't have the whole story. As a freelancer I've run into that more than once, at more than one company. I've been guilty of it myself. Without compelling evidence, I'd just assume a miscommunication was made at some point, and the people who wrote the book didn't know, at the time, that the additional material wouldn't be free, and the people who decided to charge for it didn't realize there would be a perception from consumers that it ought to be free.

Other people, coming from other places in their relationship with the company, could easily see it differently. Either way, I'm forewarned, so the community here has done me some good in any case.

Thanks!