Whither Extend Spell in 3.5?

[JoeBlank]

So the Extend Spell feat is most useful when applied to 1 hour/level spells, as you get the most time added to the spells' duration. With the buff spells nerfed to 1 min./level, it would be silly to Extend them.

For an arcane caster (my sorcerer, to be specific) that leaves Mage Armor as the only spell with a duration significantly improved by the feat. And with a sorcerer I would be happy to just use another 1st level spell slot when Mage Armor expires.

So my questions: Do you feel that Extend spell has lost a good bit of it's utility thanks to the nerfing of the buff spells? Would you still take the feat, and if so what spells would you use it on?

Side note: Personally, I think I like the nerfing of the buff spells, as I dislike the idea of casting numerous all-day spells.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

It's lost some of its luster, to be sure, but I think it will still come in handy. There are 1 rd/level spells combat spells like haste that would benefit. Summoned critters would hang around longer. Even the longer duration utility spells would benefit, like fly or water-breathing.

 

[Ravellion]

I think it is perfectly useful on 10 minute per level spells, taking into account the time a usuall adventure takes to tackle.

Of course, Extend on Bulls Strength etc. was a no brainer, hence it has lost some of its bite.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, I guess people just have to decide if the ability to extend Endure Elements, Energy Buffers, Mage Armors, Greater Magic Weapons (?), Unseen Servant, Undetectable Alignment, Phantom Steed, Nondetection (maybe if you use improved invisibility a lot), Detect Scrying, and, at very high levels, Mind Blanks, is worth spending a feat. I would guess the answer is "no."

Unless changed, extend spell would seem to have very little forseeable use in 3.5.

It's not useful for round/level spells (except at 1-3 level, they usually last all combat anyway).

It's only useful for minute/level spells if you've nothing better to do with the slot (my 3e Fighter/Abjurer/Spellsword used an extended Shield spell but that was only because his 2nd level abjurations were never useful to him) and 9 times out of ten, that's not the case.

It's not useful for 10 min/level spells at all. They already last long enough to last through an extended assault but you can't extend them long enough to last all day.

It's very useful for hour/level spells and quite useful for day/level spells too but, from all appearances, there aren't very many of either left intact in 3.5e.

If extend spell increased the duration of a spell by a factor of one--rounds to minutes, minutes to ten minutes, ten minutes to hours (possibly stopping there or just doubling hour and day/level spells)--it would be useful.

 

[jasamcarl]

Oh, jeez. One minute per level has very little effect balance-wise, especially when you consider the default balance point of a smallish dungeon. One minute=10 rounds. Most combats last 4 or 5 rounds at most. With a minimum duration of 3 minutes, there is plenty of time to remain buffed and go through 4-8 combats, especially at higher levels. You don't have time to waste on searching a room: big freakin deal. What this change restores is the idea of time as a resource in the game, taking the buffs out of their once vaunted place. Now a cleric has to weigh the amount of downtime he/she takes in healing the party before the next fight, and this encourages more combat-healing with an element of risk. It tones down the cleric in this crucial regard. The fact that they probably maxed the die for the ability increase is more than enough compensation IMO for the lost duration, much of which goes to waste in many gaming sessions anyway. Extending it will act to remove even more of the cost. This change rewards fast and efficient parties as oppossed to those who stop in the middle of a dungeon and heal to max hp thanks to the arbitrary and infinite amount of time the DM gives them. It also puts a greater game emphasis on divination spells. I lean heavily towards 'gamism' so take this for what is worth.

 

[Storminator]

I like it for summon monster, but not if you're using the combat utility of the spell. Summoned monsters usually get offed before the spell runs out.

Hey EB, where can I find the Energy Buffer spell? You've mentioned it a couple of times now, and I never heard of it.

PS

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Energy Buffer is in Tome and Blood.

Sor/Wiz 5 (Abjuration). Duration: 24 hours (or until triggered). It absorbs the first level/d6 of elemental damage to the target, and, most significantly, the element isn't chosen when the spell is cast; instead, the spell triggers on the first element that would otherwise damage the target.

It's the best insurance D&D offers against the unexpected surprise round fireball/breath weapon/etc. assault that can otherwise devastate parties.

I like it for summon monster, but not if you're using the combat utility of the spell. Summoned monsters usually get offed before the spell runs out.

Hey EB, where can I find the Energy Buffer spell? You've mentioned it a couple of times now, and I never heard of it.

PS

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think the thread is about whether extend spell is still useful; not whether reducing the buff duration was a good idea or not. Regardless of what I may think about your reasoning and arguments on the latter subject, I think it's clear that most dungeons are either:

A. Small enough that you can clear them in under 10 minutes (assuming you don't stop to search, etc)--in which case, Extend Spell really isn't necessary or helpful for min/level buffs.

or

B. Big and trapped enough that they take half an hour or longer to clear in which case Extending min/level buffs won't help at all. (And 10 min/level buffs don't need to be extended).

Dungeons bigger than that, IME, yield the same kind of experience as overland travel encounters i.e. buffs need to last 5+ hours before extending them helps them last through multiple encounters and be available in unanticipated encounters.

Extending min/level buffs won't be helpful in any of those instances.

Oh, jeez. One minute per level has very little effect balance-wise, especially when you consider the default balance point of a smallish dungeon. One minute=10 rounds. Most combats last 4 or 5 rounds at most. With a minimum duration of 3 minutes, there is plenty of time to remain buffed and go through 4-8 combats, especially at higher levels. You don't have time to waste on searching a room: big freakin deal. What this change restores is the idea of time as a resource in the game, taking the buffs out of their once vaunted place. Now a cleric has to weigh the amount of downtime he/she takes in healing the party before the next fight, and this encourages more combat-healing with an element of risk. It tones down the cleric in this crucial regard. The fact that they probably maxed the die for the ability increase is more than enough compensation IMO for the lost duration, much of which goes to waste in many gaming sessions anyway. Extending it will act to remove even more of the cost. This change rewards fast and efficient parties as oppossed to those who stop in the middle of a dungeon and heal to max hp thanks to the arbitrary and infinite amount of time the DM gives them. I lean heavily towards 'gamism' so take this for what is worth.

 

[jasamcarl]

I think the thread is about whether extend spell is still useful; not whether reducing the buff duration was a good idea or not. Regardless of what I may think about your reasoning and arguments on the latter subject, I think it's clear that most dungeons are either:

A. Small enough that you can clear them in under 10 minutes (assuming you don't stop to search, etc)--in which case, Extend Spell really isn't necessary or helpful for min/level buffs.

or

B. Big and trapped enough that they take half an hour or longer to clear in which case Extending min/level buffs won't help at all. (And 10 min/level buffs don't need to be extended).

Dungeons bigger than that, IME, yield the same kind of experience as overland travel encounters i.e. buffs need to last 5+ hours before extending them helps them last through multiple encounters and be available in unanticipated encounters.

Extending min/level buffs won't be helpful in any of those instances.

Not quite. As i said, the big oppurtunity cost these new buff spells impose is on between-combat buffing and healing. Extend spell grants twice as many rounds. Those rounds can now safely be used for such activities. And as I said, I think Big/Huge dungeons are somewhat rare and especailly for the largest, most partys will tend to rest. If such a large dungeon is actually a series of small, tightly packed dungeons (in terms of monsters), such as Return to the Temple, then extend still comes in handy. But more likely, the larger set of dungeons one encounters in modules are closer to 10-20 minutes, because of limitation in module map space. Extended buffs could still see some use in those.

 

[Umbran]

Hm, this begs the question - has the Extend Spell feat been rewritten?

Perhaps, if instead of doubling the duration, it bumps the duration up a category? Round spells become minutes, minute spells become 10 minutes, 10 minute spells become hours. Hours becomes days. Days... double?