Who are Howard and Leiber?

[Turjan]

D&D cannot stay tied to Howard and Leiber. The target audience is too young for that. If D&D doesn't keep up, its out.

Maybe surprisingly, here I want to use Merric's idea of D&D forming its own stereotypes. Merric meant that the D&D game, unlike the current fantasy literature, lacks intrigue. Most young players I met didn't like intrigue. They wanted fights, monsters and magic items. Anyway, I don't believe that they had any fantasy authors as role model, but they knew quite a lot of computer games, be it CRPGs or shooters. For them, the fascination was with the same old style that we always saw. They didn't need any Howard for that.

And if you really want intrigue, have a look at "Dynasties & Demagogues" .

 

[Aldarc]

While D&D may trace its magical origins to Vancian Magic, it should be no means confine itself to Vancian Magic for the simple sake of tradition. It is simple really. If there is a better way of doing magic that is more familiar to people, than that is perhaps the route that D&D's magic system should take. I wish Wizards of the Coast would fire and forget the "fire and forget magic system" and update the system to be more encompassing of magic. Elements of Magic, Arcana Evolved, Black Company, and Iron Heroes (although it is far from perfect) provides more adaptability for magic than Vancian. I would prefer a more universal magic and not one that is divided into divine (holy and nature) and arcane.

 

[Turjan]

(Incidentally, as I've rarely found any Vance to read, how many books does he use the system in? I've read his Lyonesse series, and the magic seems to have a different tone there).

Actually, the later Vance stories changed a bit as far as his view of magic is concerned. D&D's magic system is directly built on the stories that have been in the 1950 compilation "The Dying Earth" and to a much lesser extent from the later parts in todays compilation (The Eyes of the Overworld, Cugel's Saga, Rhialto the Marvellous). You should at least read the stories "Turjan of Miir" and "Mazirian the Magician" from the original "Dying Earth". It's D&D before anyone knew of it .

Edit: Actually, "Mazirian the Magician" is sufficient. It's the clearest representation of the system, and the story is only about 15 pages long.

 

[ThirdWizard]

D&D will always be about killing things and taking their stuff. I don't see that chaning soon.

EDIT: 'Tis the method that changes.

 

[MerricB]

Maybe surprisingly, here I want to use Merric's idea of D&D forming its own stereotypes.

It's not just intrigue, mind you. When you read Louise Cooper, you don't get mad that the magic system isn't that of Piers Anthony. Nor should you get mad when D&D Magic isn't the same as Terry Pratchett's!

D&D, from the very start, has not been limited to the imagination of the authors who most influenced it, being something different: a synthesis of elements, old and new, that made a very good game.

Furthermore, there are four new magic (sub-)systems for D&D coming out in the next few months. (Magic of Incarnum; Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow and True Name Magic). We already have the psionics system.

It is quite possible to replace regular clerics and wizards with only the psionic systems at the moment - there will be more choices soon!

This does not detract from the necessity of having a base system, which for many reasons, partly due to tradition, but partly because it works, I think should remain the Vancian one we have today (although it has been relaxed for classes like the Sorcerer).

Cheers!

 

[Aldarc]

This does not detract from the necessity of having a base system, which for many reasons, partly due to tradition, but partly because it works, I think should remain the Vancian one we have today (although it has been relaxed for classes like the Sorcerer).

But why not a base system more like Arcana Evolved? It is a pick the spells you want to cast the day, but the character may spontaneously cast any of those system. The AE system makes it so that spellcasters are not defined by so much by their type of magic, but by additional flavor: one that prefers runes (runethane), one that is magically focused (magister), one that uses innate manifestations with different bloodlines (witch), one that is nature focused (greenbond), and a fighter-mage hybrid (mage blade).

 

[Turjan]

While D&D may trace its magical origins to Vancian Magic, it should be no means confine itself to Vancian Magic for the simple sake of tradition.

As Merric already said, D&D 3E has already a few magic subsytems that have departed from the old Vancian ideal. However, I like the system in Arcana Evolved quite a lot myself .

 

[MerricB]

That might work, Aldarc.

Just a note: when choosing a magic system for D&D, the designers are likely to want one that is easy to learn and use. That's one reason why the Sorcerer is the default magic-user in the 3.5e Basic Set. (fewer decision points).

Cheers!

 

[Aldarc]

That is a good point about the ease of use for beginning players.

 

[FireLance]

This is just a random thought about the influence of technology on perceptions of magic in literature and gaming. Not very well thought through, so tear it apart if you will.

It seems to me that there has been a shift in literature from the protagonist as an observer of wonders, to the protagonist as the performer of wonders. Early protagonists may have had certain special talents or abilities, but they were usually within the limit of what was humanly possible. This is most obvious from fairy tales, where the magic almost always comes from an external agency - a sword of sharpness, seven league boots, a flying carpet, a magical animal, the blessings or curses of elves, fairies or witches, and so on. Even Frodo in the Lord of the Rings did nothing that was truly out of the ordinary.

In relatively recent years, protagonists themselves are becoming the wonderworkers. Harry Potter is only the most recent and the most popular. Offhand, I can think of several other examples: Ged from A Wizard of Earthsea, Belgarion from the Belgariad, Luke Skywalker from Star Wars, various characters from the Xanth novels, superheroes from the comics, etc. Magic is no longer something alien or separate from the protagonist, but an accepted and integral part of his identity.

I think this is the result of two trends in technology - its complexity and its pervasiveness. In the past, technology was not complex. Most of us could understand the basic principles behind the tools we used. Truly complicated technology was rare and often viewed with distrust - the province of mad scientists and secret government organizations. There was thus a clear distinction between the known, reliable and trusted ("technology"), and the unknown, esoteric and unfamiliar ("magic").

In recent years, however, technology has become more complex at the same time that it has become more pervasive. As a result of which, most of us think nothing of using and relying on gadgets without understanding how they work. I'm thinking of cell phones and computers in particular, but I'm sure there are other examples. The line between the known and the unknown is thus blurred.

So, what I'm thinking is: the pervasiveness of poorly understood but reliable technology makes many people accept or even want magic to function like technology in their books and games. The pervasiveness of technology means that many people are no longer content to just see wonders. They want to work wonders as well, and thus accept or even want protagonists who do things that ordinary people cannot in their books, and want to play such characters in their games.

What do you think?