D&D 3E/3.5 Who created the Sorcerer?

[gyor]

I would tend to believe many wizards were likely actually jealous of sorcerers. Here they are, studying for hours, poring over dusty tomes, trying to master how to cast a simple spell, when it all just comes naturally to the sorcerer. Add on the fact that a sorcerer can cast more spells per day than a wizard of the same level, and the jealousy only increases. It's not particularly surprising, then, that those wizards would project this jealousy into scorn - better to look down upon sorcerers in disdain than to pine hopelessly to be one, knowing you just don't have what it takes for spellcasting to come that naturally to you.

Johnathan

It's the old Magic Nerds vs Magic Jocks thing, even in FR Lore a lot of Wizard dominate nations don't like Sorcerers, Thay, Halruaa, perhaps others. Clerics tend to view Favoured/Divine Souls Sorcerers simularly, sometimes. I'm trying to think of a single FR nation that perfers Sorcerers, but nothing comes to mind. I do some research.

 

[gyor]

Sorcerer

A sorcerer, sometimes known as a sorceress if female, was a wielder of arcane magic that tapped into the Weave in ways bound only by their own willpower. Unlike most other arcane spellcasters, particularly the wizards they are often compared with, sorcerers had innate magical ability and were...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

Aglarond seems to be one of the few realms that hold Sorcerers in high esteem, and perhaps Mulhorand, likely due to there being a lot of Divine Souls and Storm Sorcerers in the region tie to religion, perhaps other types as well.

 

[Minigiant]

It's the old Magic Nerds vs Magic Jocks thing, even in FR Lore a lot of Wizard dominate nations don't like Sorcerers, Thay, Halruaa, perhaps others. Clerics tend to view Favoured/Divine Souls Sorcerers simularly, sometimes. I'm trying to think of a single FR nation that perfers Sorcerers, but nothing comes to mind. I do some research.

Well Sorcerers are often to rare to take any political control.

The standard origin for a sorcerer has them rare and unfortunate. So a mage guild or magocracy just won't have many sorcerer's if any and would see them as threats.

I think only dragonborn nations have many sorcerers and few DMs and official settings have.

But it feels like a Nerds vs Theater kids thing in setting as well.

 

[JeffB]

Jonathan Tweet has a fairly regular column here talking specifically about 3E design. Might want to ask him in the comments next time Russ posts one of his articles?

 

[MoonSong]

Can I get a link to what this last thread was? I'm unsure of what is being referenced but would like to read it.

It is the previous thread I started to respond to a post in another thread before it.

D&D 5E - On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

(I wanted to address this post, but I thought it was better to make a new thread for it. Because ... reasons. I keep seeing this idea over and over.) Re: Sorcerer, I think the class plays better than people are giving it credit for on the conceptual level. That said, thematically there is no...

www.enworld.org

 

[gyor]

Well Sorcerers are often to rare to take any political control.

The standard origin for a sorcerer has them rare and unfortunate. So a mage guild or magocracy just won't have many sorcerer's if any and would see them as threats.

I think only dragonborn nations have many sorcerers and few DMs and official settings have.

But it feels like a Nerds vs Theater kids thing in setting as well.

If you read the fluff for FR and the Divine Soul Sorcerer they rare in general, but not always rare locally, just as Wizards are uncommon until you get to a place Halruaa, Thay, Deep Imaskar, where they are common.

 

[the Jester]

Also he purportedly said things like "if players complain about sorcerer, they should have played a wizard instead" to defend giving extra slots per day to wizards, and "how they aren't a proper casting class". (To be fair though, I haven't seen the actual quotes in context)

That's funny, seeing as how it was sorcerers who had extra slots per day compared to wizards. Unless you're referring to the idea of giving wizards more slots later on, in some kind of supplement or something?

Anyhow, I don't think that the supposed disdain you are seeing was a thing among the designers, so much as the in-character quotes from wizards showed that those characters felt disdain for sorcerers in-world. I suspect that the 3e version of the sorcerer came out weak because the designers were afraid that the combination of extra spell slots and "I don't have to prepare" would be overpowered.

 

[Todd Roybark]

also has this in character quote by Mialee dissing sorcerers.

XGE also has a quote about Bat Wings for Evil and Feathered Wings for Good being a tired trope above the Divine Soul Subclass. ‘In Character’ flavor text should not be considered as accurately representing designer opinion.

Monte Cook stated during his Malhavoc Press days that a 3e ‘blaster’ type sorcerer was balanced, and part of the design philosophy of 3e. It was the ‘Buffer/Utility’ Sorcerer build that was not expected by the designers, and was much more problematic.

 

[MoonSong]

‘In Character’ flavor text should not be considered as accurately representing designer opinion.

Like I said. It is not the in character text itself. It is the fact that it is right next to the sorcerer stuff speaking of sorcerers in a dismissive way -on the only half page dedicated to sorcerers after a dozen focussed on wizard only- this im a book that basically gives wizards extra spell slots and introduces reserve feats that sorcerers can't use. All at a very reduced cost. On the other hand sorcerers only get the option to cast metamagic without extra time but it takes 9 levels and spending a significative portion of your skill points on a skill that is of little use to sorcerers.

Then -supposedly- when asked on why he gave wizards ectra slots, but no extra spells known to sorcerers wulliams answers "then you should be playing wizards"

 

[Todd Roybark]

Well to be fair many people have at least a few “You Should Have played a Wizard” moments vis a vis Sorcerers...

Perhaps Skip renounced his creation like Dr. Frankenstein.

The softcover 3.0 Splatbooks were to use a term of art...crappy

Complete Mage, outside of the PrCs, was not heavily used, at least not on the Enworld discussion boards....were Sudden Metamagic Feats in that book?