Who needs the cleric class?

[Bad Paper]

I'm shocked at the lot of you that want to increase healing. I think healing is out of control in this game, which is why every party needs a damn cleric. I want to dump or seriously restrict healing, like maybe increase the level of all healing spells, and maybe shave off one spell per level per day from the cleric's list.

I would prefer to reduce the cleric to the fifth wheel "nice to have along, but not necessary" guy.

 

[Harm]

Clerics get the entire spell set as their spellbook so when the spell compendium comes out cleric spell choices tripled. An already powerful class became overpowered. On top of that the spell compendium spells are just flat out overpowered and never should have been given to clerics. Things like sound lance, assay spell resistance and greater bolt of glory should never have been made.

Our last couple fights...
Black dragon - sorcerer 30 something damage with fireball, wizard assay + 89 damage with sound lance, cleric assay + 80 damage with 2 resisted sound lances, melee 0 damage.

Dracolich (different party) cleric over 50% of it's HP with an assay + G.Bolt of Glory with no feats used to boost damage, wizard 30 damage resisted max disintigrate, rogue 2d6 damage with a scroll of holy rain. Cleric finished it off with a heal. Melee got one attack of op on it and missed (40 AC, 15 level fighter) other fighter was paralyzed.

Epic hexblade or blackgaurd started the fight flying with a spell that incapacitated based on will and all the melee got hosed despite resistance cloaks and iron will on some of them. Wizard opened with a quicked and a max fireball doing about 75 damage then another 25 with a max magic missle before being incapacitated. Rogue did 10d6 with 2 charges on a wand of lighting, cleric did the bulk of the damage with flame strikes. Melee did about 15 damage with ranged weapons.

So our main damage dealer in those two parties... the cleric. Saves having to heal when you can kill the enemy before it does much damage. The melee have either been incapacitated, faced with flying opponents or having to deal with extremely high ACs. The cleric hasn't suffered any of those problems and with assay spell resistance has nothing stopping them from doing massive damage. They're also the main healer. Toss in augury and find the path and they're findingn all the secret doors and traps too. Frankly it's just plain ing moronic. WotC really did a good job of screwing up the game badly with all the expansion books.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

The biggest problem with clerics is they are the default bandaids. If wiz/sorc could cast the heal spells then that would take the pressure off clerics. In games that I used to run the restoration spells and healing were universal. Clerics got nerfed to D6 added more skill points dropped heavy armor etc like lots of others suggested. Wizards and Sorcerers coul aslo cast healing spells. People who like playing a cleric liked the class and were happy that the arcane casters could pick up some of the slack with healing after battle. In standard 3e they are given a power up to make the class more appealing to players who only play for power. The real problem is limiting healing to clerics. Open it up to all and you don't need a cleric in the party, though they are a great boon with trun undead. People who like them will still play them and generally are happier because they are not the sole healer.

Plus nearly every book you read wizards can heal. The real problem is the D&D sacred cow that healing is soley the clerics province and as a result screws the class over. Not all players look for ultimate power. Many play a sorcerer even though they are weaker than a wizard, or a fighter etc.

The 2 games I ran with those changes still always had at least 1 cleric in them. And all in all the players were happier with the class when they were not looked at as a bandaid. It also made the sorcerer much more liked by the party. Though we had a version pretty much the same as Monte Cooks from Eldritch Might 2 but with the standard spell list. (d6 4 skill points, free enshew materials, and you got bonus feats at the same levels as wizards did). The sorc became the main healer, the wizards were good 2nd healers and the players never memorized more than a couple healing spells but always had a few scrolls of healing. All in all it added to the party cohesion.

 

[MarkB]

But that is what balances it. I think it is fine.

Being boring is what balances a class?

As it stands, Clerics are ideal candidates for practically any prestige class that provides full spellcasting progression, because they lose nothing significant (a little power from their Turn Undead, and maybe from their Domain abilities) and gain whatever extra class features the PrC provides in return. A base class should provide some incentive to stick with it.

 

[MarkB]

The biggest problem with clerics is they are the default bandaids. If wiz/sorc could cast the heal spells then that would take the pressure off clerics. In games that I used to run the restoration spells and healing were universal. Clerics got nerfed to D6 added more skill points dropped heavy armor etc like lots of others suggested. Wizards and Sorcerers coul aslo cast healing spells. People who like playing a cleric liked the class and were happy that the arcane casters could pick up some of the slack with healing after battle. In standard 3e they are given a power up to make the class more appealing to players who only play for power. The real problem is limiting healing to clerics. Open it up to all and you don't need a cleric in the party, though they are a great boon with trun undead. People who like them will still play them and generally are happier because they are not the sole healer.

That's not a bad idea. Maybe leave the Cure Wounds spells as Cleric/Druid, and make the Vigor spells Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard. That keeps the Cleric's value for quick battlefield healing, but allows the arcane casters to heal up the party between encounters.

 

[Herobizkit]

In one homebrew campaign of mine, there were no "practiced" spellcasters; everyone was a spontaneous caster by trade. Sorcerers and Favoured Souls were your wizards and clerics. Luckily I only had one player so I didn't have to go into detail over Rangers and Paladins...

Personally, I prefer the spontaneity and flavour of the Favoured Soul over the utility of the base Cleric.

 

[Henrix]

I'm not certain I want healing increased, but it seems simpler than lowering hp/damage/spells/monster abilities/you name it.

I'm currently thinking about letting half the damage taken in the last battle heal when the character has had time to recuperate (maybe allow extra for some good heal checks... maybe even allow for some ability damage to be healed that way).


Throwing around the clerics abilities so that it is interesting past level 1 is good too.

 

[Odhanan]

I think the cleric's just fine as it is. It's actually played less at the game tables I've seen than other PHB classes. One thing that seems to be forgotten in the for/against summary of the OP is that the Cleric is a passive/support class through and through. D&D is a game that encourages specialization over versatility in most cases. Unless one optimizes it as a support character, the Cleric isn't a champion of specialization, and that plays against it big time.

 

[|)ar|{]

IMHO clerics are a little too strong at high levels and pretty solid throughout. That being said, at least in our games, we have a hard time getting anyone to want to play one even at their current power level. I think this is mainly due to them no getting any nonspell abilities after level 1. I suggested not that they be changed for power balance reasons but to get rid of some of their 19 dead levels. Of course you would then have to limit them in some other way, for starters removing divine metamagic, to keep them balanced but I'd trade that for a few flavorful abilities like the favored soul or druid.

 

[Harm]

we have a hard time getting anyone to want to play one even at their current power level. I think this is mainly due to them no getting any nonspell abilities after level 1.

Gaining a spell level is FAR more powerful than gaining non-spell abilities. Thats why clerics are overpowered. Fighter gains a level, pick a feat. Cleric gains a level... okay now you can raise the dead, summon more powerful monsters, teleport to other planes, break enchantments,
give +10 dex, breath like a dragon, do about 30 other different things too 3 times per day.

Fighter's level, oh, power attack can do 2 more damage... if it hits. Cleric, all your damage spells gain another d6/d8/d12 depending, which when maximized really means 6/8/12.

Everyone's suggestion for changing the cleric, lower armour, lower HD is pretty much exactly the Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana, although UA gives a few nice perks for the "loss" of the armor and the HPs.