Who will "fill in the grid"?

[glass]

As of now, there isn't a Martial Controller from what I understand. As a result of that, the class choices for being the controller are less than the other roles. That's a bad thing, pure and simple.

Why? ISTM like if there are lots of different arcane controllers (an there will be) the lack of a martial one doesn't make any difference in that respect.

EDIT: Not to mention potentially Psionic controllers, and Primal controllers, and Shadow controllers...


glass.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

-Psionic Leader = Ardent
-Psionic Defender = Psychic Warrior
-Psionic Controller = Psion
-Psionic Striker = Lurk/Soulknife

Thank you for supplying the Mental source (I've never used the new Psionics rules to figure it out).

My line up looks more like;
Arcane
Defender - Swordmage
Striker - Warlock
Leader - Bard
Controller - Wizard

Martial
Defender - Fighter
Striker - Rogue
Leader - Warlord
Controller - Alchemist (ability to make Ranged AoE weapons etc)

Divine
Defender - Paladin
Striker - Monk
Leader - Cleric
Controller - Shugenja (renamed and refluffed obviously)

Nature
Defender - Barbarian
Striker - Ranger
Leader - Druid
Controller - Sorcerer

Shadow
Leader - Necromancer
Striker - Ninja (who will kill the Assassin and Shadowdancer and take their stuff as well)
Controller - Shadowcaster
Defender - Hexblade

 

[Steely Dan]

1.) Divine
Striker - Monk


2.) Nature
Striker - Ranger
Controller - Sorcerer


3.) Shadow
Striker - Ninja (who will kill the Assassin and Shadowdancer and take their stuff as well)
Controller - Shadowcaster

1.) I really hope the monk is not divine, I think it will be a Ki Striker.


2.) As the ranger is in the PHB I and there is no Primal power source in that book, I'm pretty sure the ranger is a Martial Striker (ranged focused). They have also mentioned an Elementalist class, so I could see that being the Primal Controller or the Sorcerer.


3.) I don't think we will see Oriental/Asian classes outside of a 4th Ed OA, so I think the Shadow Striker will be the Assassin or the Shadow Dancer. They have mentioned that "Shadow is a power source. Involved with stealth, illusion, dread, 'devastating enemies' and 'necrotic energy'", so I think it is highly likely that the Shadow Controller will be the Illusionist.

 

[glass]

1.) I really hope the monk is not divine, I think it will be a Ki Striker.

I think monk and ninja will both be ki-powered (and possibly both strikers too). Which is exactly the point I was making earlier -classes should have the role and power source that makes sense for them, rather than having such things dictated artificially.


glass.

 

[Steely Dan]

I think monk and ninja will both be ki-powered (and possibly both strikers too). Which is exactly the point I was making earlier -classes should have the role and power source that makes sense for them, rather than having such things dictated artificially.

Yeah, this Ranger as a Martial Controller obsession is starting to irritate me.

 

[Darkwolf71]

One of the things I agree with WotC about is that a 'grid' creates a pressure to fill it out, just as is being discussed here. This could very well lead to craptastic classes that make no sense and exist for the sole purpose of 'filling out the grid'. Nope, I'd rather have solid classes that work. Not that I wouldn't like to see some of the ideas here, but I point to martial controler for example. Why? the ideas mentioned so far are silly and would take away from the whole of 4e. If someone has a good idea, great. But lets not have classes just 'to fill a spot on the grid'.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

1.) I really hope the monk is not divine, I think it will be a Ki Striker.

*shrug* It can go a lot of ways it depends how they want to do it. Monk certainly could be a Mental Striker or another Martial one.

2.) As the ranger is in the PHB I and there is no Primal power source in that book, I'm pretty sure the ranger is a Martial Striker (ranged focused). They have also mentioned an Elementalist class, so I could see that being the Primal Controller or the Sorcerer.

The idea of Ranger as "Martial Striker" doesn't really sit well with me - a Ranger is as much "Martial" as a Paladin is, and Paladins were cast as Divine, so I really hope the Ranger is cast in Nature or Primal. But alas my wishes in this case will likely amount to nothing.

3.) I don't think we will see Oriental/Asian classes outside of a 4th Ed OA, so I think the Shadow Striker will be the Assassin or the Shadow Dancer. They have mentioned that "Shadow is a power source. Involved with stealth, illusion, dread, 'devastating enemies' and 'necrotic energy'", so I think it is highly likely that the Shadow Controller will be the Illusionist.

I used Ninja and Shugenja for their mechanical derivation - not their current fluff. I expect the fluff to be changed, call the Ninja a "Shadow Stabber" and tool them up with mechanics inspired from the Shadow Heart Discipline, the Ninja Class, the Shadowdancer, and the Assassin. Looks like a solid combo of abilities that can be smoothed out and made to work over 30 levels without just being "a more shadowy rogue"

Shugenja is much the same - take the mechanical inspiration from there and off you go with new fluff and a new name "Divine Blaster of Doom" it really doesn't matter in the end what the class is called in terms of establishing a baseline mechanical inspiration.

 

[Steely Dan]

The idea of Ranger as "Martial Striker" doesn't really sit well with me - a Ranger is as much "Martial" as a Paladin is, and Paladins were cast as Divine, so I really hope the Ranger is cast in Nature or Primal. But alas my wishes in this case will likely amount to nothing.

I also thought is could be cool if they wait till the PHB II and release the ranger as a Primal Striker, but as I like my rangers to be gritty, smelly, Green Beret types, I'm perfectly happy to see them as Martial Strikers.

..As long as they're not divine…

 

[ObsidianCrane]

If someone has a good idea, great. But lets not have classes just 'to fill a spot on the grid'.

Good is subjective in this case.

Good is also dependent on seeing the finished product that is handed to us from some publisher or other.

People throwing ideas at the "grid" that have traction for them is not actually a bad thing - part of the benefit of the "grid" is that it is in fact not restrictive.

For example my first pass is just that, a first pass of how I could imagine those slots being filled, I can also imagine other ways of filling various slots - especially the incredibly broadly defined "Martial" (how I wish they had used Physical instead) Power Source.

In short the "grid" is not possible to "fill" because its not simply a 2 column table - its a table with Rows = (Power Sources x 4) and Columns = number of ideas you have now. WotC's understanding that you cannot ever "fill" the "grid" is why they are not trying to do so in the PHB, despite the initial expectation of some people that they should.

 

[Aristotle]

I don't think the grid has to be filled in, and it's unlikely that I'll purchase a book from a 3rd party that's primary appeal is the filling in of the grid. I'll just wait and see what power sources Wizards puts out, and how each is supplemented. That said, it's still fun to speculate...

I'd like to see the monk and ninja get killed and have their stuff taken by a new, more generic, martial arts class under the Psionic power source. Sort of like the Adept from Shadowrun, which can be used for all sorts of martial arts character concepts given proper power choices and a good background. This character class would focus on the principal of mind over body, performing extraordinary feats through the mastery of that principal.

By not making a "ninja" class, you force less restriction on a ninja society. They aren't all ninjas. Many will be the psionic martial artists I envision. A few may be fighters, rangers, or rogues, and some will be Assassins (from the Shadow power source).