Who will "fill in the grid"?

[Klaus]

One of the things I agree with WotC about is that a 'grid' creates a pressure to fill it out, just as is being discussed here. This could very well lead to craptastic classes that make no sense and exist for the sole purpose of 'filling out the grid'. Nope, I'd rather have solid classes that work. Not that I wouldn't like to see some of the ideas here, but I point to martial controler for example. Why? the ideas mentioned so far are silly and would take away from the whole of 4e. If someone has a good idea, great. But lets not have classes just 'to fill a spot on the grid'.

Why does it have to be an "either/or" situation? Why can't we look at the existing classes and try to find which ones fill the empty niches?

A player might go "I wanna play a controller". The DM goes "well, you can choose to play an arcane controller". "But I don't want to cast spells? Isn't there some non-magical controller in there?". "Er... no". "I'll just go play a fighter..."

 

[Darkwolf71]

Why does it have to be an "either/or" situation? Why can't we look at the existing classes and try to find which ones fill the empty niches?

A player might go "I wanna play a controller". The DM goes "well, you can choose to play an arcane controller". "But I don't want to cast spells? Isn't there some non-magical controller in there?". "Er... no". "I'll just go play a fighter..."

Instead you'd rather have some contrived class to fill the spot? I mean, an Alchemist? Instant trapsetter? Gaaah. Please, no.

 

[Set]

Just because you CAN make a grid of the two doesn't mean it's a useful idea. Some concepts just plain don't work.

Of course they can. And if people want to play such characters, then it's definitely a useful idea!

A "martial controller" is bound to be so ridiculous it's not worth the effort.

Never heard of a gatling chain-tripper then, I guess? Spiked Chain wielding and / or mass AoO-provoking battlefield controllers are one of the most popular straight Fighter builds on the Char Op forums over at WotC.

(Alchemical-bomb-thrower? Really-fast-trap-layer?)

Combat Trapsmith, Complete Scoundrel. A class that I think is pretty silly to some extent, but WotC *already made it,* so listing it as too silly for 3rd-party publishers to touch is kinda like the definition of irony.

 

[Cadfan]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR why is everybody so obsessed with this damn "grid"?

Grids drive gamers insane. They see a grid, they MUST fill it, no matter the consequences.

Look at dragons. They've got a grid for color. They've got a grid for energy type. They've got a grid for environment. They've got a grid for alignment. Every time someone thought up a grid, it instantly HAD to be filled in for every possible dragon.

So now we've got blue dragons that live in temperate deserts, are always lawful (not chaotic) evil, and have electricity powers. Why? Are deserts particularly known for electricity? Why do they burrow in the sand? How does that even work if they have massive wings? Who knows. Isn't the line, "their vibrant color makes them easy to spot in barren desert surroundings" kind of... problematic? The grid dictates all.

The problem with this type of design is that it forecloses other, often better, design decisions. Instead of a blue dragon, the desert could have, I don't know, a Desert Dragon with desert themed abilities. Give it the pattern and coloration of a rattlesnake, maybe, and replace its breathe weapon with a venomous bite. Take the blue dragon, call him a Storm Dragon, and put him anywhere the weather tends towards storms. Who knows. We never will, because all the details on the blue dragon were created to fill out a chart.

 

[Klaus]

Instead you'd rather have some contrived class to fill the spot? I mean, an Alchemist? Instant trapsetter? Gaaah. Please, no.

Why does it have to be contrived or forced? Why can't it be an awesome class that fills a vacant niche?

I fail to see where a class designed to fill a void has to be necessarily bad...

 

[Darkwolf71]

Why can't it be an awesome class that fills a vacant niche?

Wait... what?

You did read my first post, right?

Nope, I'd rather have solid classes that work.

If it works, GREAT! If it doesn't, don't force it. That's all I'm sayin.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Never heard of a gatling chain-tripper then, I guess? Spiked Chain wielding and / or mass AoO-provoking battlefield controllers are one of the most popular straight Fighter builds on the Char Op forums over at WotC.

This, IMO, just hilights a problem with most postulated martial controllers. That's not a controller. That's a defender with a larger reach. He's using his abilities at melee range to keep attackers from attacking his friends. He doesnt have the ability to effect the entire battlefield like a true controller can, just the relatively small area that's surrounding him.

 

[Dragonblade]

Easy to say. Now how does the archer class actually work? How does it fill the Controller role? Not so easy to implement.

EDIT: For and Archer to be a controller, he would have to be be able to pull of lots of amazing tricks with his arrows, while simultaneously being pretty bad at just shooting people with them, which makes no sense.


glass.

Easy. Wizards can blast single opponents with rays as easily as they can fireball groups. Likewise an Archer could have powerful single arrow attacks and also have groups attacks. You could have powers named something like Blot Out the Sun, where the Archer fires so fast he can fill an entire area with arrows and makes a roll against the Ref Defense of everyone in the area. That would be cool.

You could also have all sorts of trick shots like Ranged Pin, or shooting an arrow with a rope to a distant point which allows climbing up or across something.

 

[Klaus]

This, IMO, just hilights a problem with most postulated martial controllers. That's not a controller. That's a defender with a larger reach. He's using his abilities at melee range to keep attackers from attacking his friends. He doesnt have the ability to effect the entire battlefield like a true controller can, just the relatively small area that's surrounding him.

But that's what design/illustration/composing-for-hire is. You're paid to design something, so you force yourself to come up with something awesome to get paid for.

 

[Cryptos]

I don't think a martial controller has to be any more silly than a martial leader.

Here's a guy that is inspiring his allies and creating positive effects across a battlefield by being a really impressive guy in armor with a big voice and tactical knowledge.

A controller is just the inverse of that in many ways. He would create negative effects on a large scale across a battlefield for use against foes, rather than positive effects on a large scale across a battlefield for use on allies. So instead of being a really inspiring (almost comically inspiring - "feather me, yon oaf"??!) person, he could be a really intimidating person.

A dervish or berserker with reach weapons may not affect a whole battlefield, but depending on your spell descriptions for 4e, a fireball rarely covers a whole battlefield, either.

It's AoE for Area of Effect, not Area of Everywhere. I think the "reach" of many AoE wizard spells is being overstated or overestimated here. I doubt AoEs would be significantly greater in radius from 3e to 4e.

Also, combat is kinetic in 4e... it's running battles and terrain hazards and constant repositioning instead of "the wizard stands in the back" - because if the wizard plants himself in anyone spot with plans to stay there for the whole encounter, he'll be in real trouble when the "back" suddenly becomes the "middle". So it's entirely possible for such a character to be making running swipes and dives and tumbles, and all sorts of dramatic movements across space, mowing down foes in the process. The Tasmanian Devil with blades. This could easily replicate "line of effect" style attacks like lightning bolts. The shapes of the AoEs might change, but these things always have varied by class and ability or spell selection.

And if said dervish or berserker takes down a half a dozen kobolds in as many seconds with a single maneuver, it doesn't seem silly that the other three dozen kobolds across the field of battle would be crapping in their already soiled rags. The potential for AoEs is there, and the potential for negative modifiers and influences across an entire battlefield are there.

As for "filling in the grid", perhaps that's the wrong term to use. I don't feel the grid should ever be considered complete. Unlike the "dragon grid" clearly we like our character classes and we don't want them to stop at one of each. But we would like to see one of each, at least early on. We already have two martial strikers to begin with. Eventually, there will be more. But to clarify: to start, having a class for each role within a power source, acknowledging that there will always be more classes in some role/power source combinations.

I think a lot of it comes down to thinking with old paradigms. People are still (and will probably remain) stuck in "static combat mode" mentality or "dipping in other classes weakens your primary role" mentality or "the fighter wacks on one opponent with a sword until he falls and then moves on" mentality, or any of the other tropes of previous editions that they state they are getting rid of.