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Who writes the best fights?

Rackhir said:
I'd have to put in a second vote for David Drake. Many authors are decent at describing combat scenes, but only David Drake makes you understand what it's like to BE in combat. However, he is one of those authors that are either fantastic or totaly suck. "Rolling Hot" (now part of the collection "The Tank Lords" iirc) and "Forlorn Hope" are probably his two best. Though FH is probably hard to find.

Ahh yes, Forlorn Hope, that's a great book. However I'm not sure I know which ones of his suck. I do recall one he did with Janet Morris which I didn't care for, but most everything that he did by himself has been either at least acceptable or quite good. Of course maybe I'm just overly taken with his books.

buzzard
 

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Dragonblade said:
You are seriously smoking something. Jordan is one of the best fantasy authors when it comes to fights. His sword forms and epic battles with the One Power are awesome. He is a master of "resonance" and depicts very well a D&D-ish world with epic characters walking around.

Dude you've gotta be shooting 8-balls or something; have you ever read his Conan stories? It's 80 pages of Conan boning his way through the story followed by for the climactic fight scene something like a paragraph going (obvious paraphrase)"OK Conan stabs it it's dead lot's of Conansex now."
 

Ah, a near and dear topic.

First off, point of distinction: I tend to divide up my fight-scene writers into two categories: detail (or choreogrpahy, if you will)-oriented, and flavor-oriented. Here's a grossly dumbed-down version of each:

Detail:

Bob parried Steve's thrust with a parry that brought Steve's blade out to the side, and Bob used the opportunity to lunge in with a high slash. Steve swept his blade up in a high circling block that caught Bob's blade, and then Steve was rolling out from under the attack and whipping his knife out into throwing position...

Flavor:

Steve lunged in, but Bob countered with crisp efficiency, his face never losing its calm even as his blade knocked Steve's strikes away and then slashed in with brutal strikes that sent Steve dancing back to avoid them...

Flavor tends to move a lot faster than Detail, but Detail is a lot more, well, detailed.

The biggest mistakes I've seen are:

Detail:
a) Writing a ten-second fight that takes five minutes to read
b) Writing a fight that only somebody from your martial arts school can understand
c) Getting the details wrong enough that people who know what they're doing will get annoyed with you

Flavor:
a) Oversimplifying it, to the point where it's possible to miss the fight scene utterly by skimming
b) Having the fight scene depend waaaaay too much on the state of mind of the fighter (such that the hero is losing until he sees his true love, which gives him hope, and then he wins -- over and over again in every fight)
c) Choosing which details to use incorrectly

My personal likes:

Flavor: Peter David. I have no idea if he's studied any real fighting art, but dang, I love his fights. They're good and fast and emotional, and he really understands how to make it exciting and involved. When he puts in little details, they seem to be the right ones -- I understand enough of what's going on to imagine how it'd look in a graphic novel (which he writes a fair number of, so that makes sense).

Flavor: David Eddings, although it's been a LONG time since I've read him, and I could really hate him now. I liked the way that he used a quick description to give us the flavor of each fighting style, and then pretty much let us envision the rest -- Hettar uses light slashing strikes, Barak uses hacking strikes, Mandorallen(sp? on all, btw) uses crisp large-blade techniques, and so on.

Detail-Flavor mix: Early R.A. Salvatore. I loved the first few books. I imagined great fights. I loved how it all fit together, how it managed to convey the slashes and parries and blocks and dodges without getting terribly bogged down. Sure, a big fight could take a long time to read, but it felt like it took about as long to read as it would to watch it on-screen.

Detail: Stephen Barnes. He usually does a pretty good job of explaining the martial system he's using in each book as he starts the book up, so that you eventually understand the system that you're reading about well enough to understand a climactic fight that you wouldn't have understood at the beginning of the novel.

Detail: GRRM. Love how he manages to convey a lot about the different fight scenes with just the right number of words -- and how he varies the fighting styles so well but always seems true to the fighter at the time.

Flavor: Early Jordan. Loved Jordan's fights up through, I dunno, book four or so. I liked the fighting style, which was never overexplained -- or at least, was only as overexplained as anything else in the books. :)

Least favorite fight-scene writers:

Later R.A. Salvatore -- I feel as though he got bogged down, saw that people really didn't want magic as much as they wanted fighting, and so added a ton of fighting, WITH magic, and ended up getting this big gloppy mess that never really felt as swashbuckling and cool as his other stuff. It manages to be vague AND slow, which is tough.

Goodkind: Feh. I have a ton of problems with Goodkind, but in terms of his fights... He doesn't seem to actually have them. The first book did not, as far as I can recall, contain a fight between two people with swords. The fight scenes that did happen were not really all that good. It's all muddled. I get the sense that Goodkind has never actually studied any kind of martial art or even watched a good swashbuckling movie. His fights are awful, which would be forgivable were his big honking series not CALLED "The Sword of Truth", which really implies some kind of swordplay at some point, no? The few times he actually shows details, he gets them wrong, to the point where I start muttering aloud about how, yes, it's all a metaphor for moral growth, but maybe if you could have bothered to even tell me what KIND of bloody sword it is...

I find that I usually enjoy Flavor writers more than Detail writers, even though I do enough martial arts to get most of the Detail stuff. This is often because the Detail people are all about the Detail and not about, say, characters. :) Some of the military SF people write these incredibly detailed fight scenes that you need a sextant and a sliderule to figure out, and the people are just cardboard cutouts. And, of course, there's the technoporn -- the action-thriller novels that are the guy equivalent of bodice-rippers -- the guilty pleasure stuff on the garbage shelf at Target. Those things always have somebody who breaks people's necks with "bone-shattering Aikido kicks", or something about as reasonable.

There was an article in Strange Horizons about martial arts in fantasy -- it raised a really neat point about how fantasy has come a long ways. We used to have heroes who were just naturally good -- the hero, who has never held a sword before, gets a magical sword and, because of his sheer virtue, kills eight evil knights and a dragon. Now, we at least have training sequences and sections of the hero learning how to fight. The article ended by asking about a next stage of martial arts (either Asian, European, or Elven) in fantasy, one in which the fighting is no longer just flavor for the story, but so integrated that the story would utterly collapse if the fighting were removed -- with the story still being good. :)
 

blackshirt5 said:
Dude you've gotta be shooting 8-balls or something; have you ever read his Conan stories? It's 80 pages of Conan boning his way through the story followed by for the climactic fight scene something like a paragraph going (obvious paraphrase)"OK Conan stabs it it's dead lot's of Conansex now."
You know, it's rather disconcerting to see Harry Potter saying stuff like this.
 

As opposed to hearing a leaping kitten flame somebody? :)

Oh, btw, Hong -- blog is updated. It's even roleplaying-related this time.
 

And the guy who wrote War of the Spider Queen: Dissolution writes the best spell-fights I've read.

I just finished reading this. My only (but rather large) complaint, the use of the troph: "A couple minutes" or "a couple orcs" etc. Is it really so hard to write of? It's a sign of very bad style.
 

takyris said:
As opposed to hearing a leaping kitten flame somebody? :)

Oh, btw, Hong -- blog is updated. It's even roleplaying-related this time.
You know, I am now going to have to dump a fiendish dracolich with an unholy vorpal spiked chain into my campaign.


Hong "it's only a kitten, I'll have its head off" Ooi
 

I thought that article up while doing an AIDS walk. The strange thing is that I could actually see gamers doing it -- it sounds sooooo much more fun than getting up absurdly early and putting on a goofy t-shirt and walking a long ways.

And how the heck did my dracolich and up with a spiked chain? Frell. Why would he use a 2d4 weapon instead of his own far superior natural attacks. I can't believe I nerfed my own BBEG.
 

As stated above, it all depends on the type of fight you're looking to hear about:

Glen Cook does some of the best fantasy military fiction around, most notably The Black Company series. His warriors are canny, dangerous and their lives are always on the line. His combats are gritty and desperate.

Robert Jordan DID good combats in the Wheel of Time, up until, as said, around Book 5, when he clearly got bored of the whole affair. Apparently, we can get fifteen pages of a character reflecting on the lack of rain, but only a two paragraph description of an epic battle and the defeat of the Shaido chief.

George R. R. Martin, by contrast, knows when to zoom in, and when to zoom out. The two standouts from "Song of Ice and Fire" for me are the Battle of King's Landing and the aforementioned battle between the Mountain and the Red Viper. The duel to defend the dwarf is another good one.

Eric Flint writes a pretty good stab at historical military fiction, even though I tend to think he misses the boat on characterization a tad. I enjoyed his discussion and representation of military battles of the 17th century (and the subsequent introduction of 20th century militiamen into it).

And Akira Toriyama's original Dragonball and Dragonball Z manga not only revolutionized the level of art in comedy manga, he redefined the level of loving detail for fight choreography, too. There's a reason the man sits atop an empire of his own manga making. :)
 

blackshirt5 said:
Dude you've gotta be shooting 8-balls or something; have you ever read his Conan stories? It's 80 pages of Conan boning his way through the story followed by for the climactic fight scene something like a paragraph going (obvious paraphrase)"OK Conan stabs it it's dead lot's of Conansex now."

Nice! :D

Well, in all fairness, I haven't read the Conan stuff, but the Wheel of Time fights are awesome.

Now you may have issues with the length of the series, etc. and so forth. I have my issues with Jordan too. But fight scenes are not one of them.
 

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