D&D 5E Who wrote these CRs?

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The majority of times someone says there is something off about the 5th edition CR system, it is as a result of them expecting it to do something other than it's intended function (it's a rough benchmark of when a monster probably won't kill anyone in the party before it dies, not a benchmark of what level of party the monster will push to their limits and nearly triumph against), the DM playing the monster in a way that makes it a push-over, or a combination of the two... and throw in a side of analyzing CR not based on the chances that something goes one way or the other, but on how things played out that one time with how the dice rolled, completely ignoring how unlikely it is that what happened that one time to happen at all.

This doesn't seem any different, since a solar is actually very unlikely to be severely affected by any spell (decent AC, lots of high ability scores in the saves it isn't proficient with, more proficient saves than most monsters, and magic resistance on top of that) let alone be completely defeated by a single spell. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that it happening was a statistical outlier and thus isn't evidence against the CR system working as intended.

 

[Jester David]

Some CRs are a little funky. You'd almost think they wrote the Monster Manual two months before they had the guidelines for CRs or something.

Because of the non-symmetry of monsters, CRs will be inaccurate. The challenge of a monster and how devastating it can be will depend on the party makeup and how many fights they have had before. It's pretty variable.

 

[wedgeski]

We have way too little information to know whether the encounter was as broken as you say. A CR is only as relevant as the party composition, their remaining resources, and the experience of the players allow. Top-end MMO content is stratified, a D&D monster isn't; that's where the game has to rely on the DM.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A lot of factors can affect CR. Are you using multi-classing? Feats? What kinds of magic items does the party have?

Even after all of that, even if none of those options are being used, sometimes incredible luck strikes and a tough encounter gets one-shotted. Other times the opposite will happen- a fairly routine encounter might wipe out the party due to terrible luck. This is simply the results of game play going in unexpected directions. If such encounter results become the norm then you need to look at all the factors that are skewing things that way and figure out what the problem might be.

If you using array stats, average hit points, no feats, no multi-classing, and few or no magic items and encounters are still this trivial on a constant basis then look at CR as an issue.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I second the "what spell" but also will offer a bit of what I experienced... all monster in the MM can be set at CR-2 and still feel fine, but the best option is to used the rules to make your own (there is an excel sheet out there) and balance offense and defense... because right now you can make (and wotc did) a offensice CR 20 and a Defensive CR 8 and average out to a CR 14 that will not last... or just as bad (but different) a offensive CR 1, Defensive CR 15 and make a slog but no threat CR 8....

 

[bganon]

I sort of wish 5e had kept some of the 4e "role" designations for monsters, or at least had given some more hints on where to place them within an encounter. Because looking at the Solar statblock, this thing screams "ranged leader" to me, so it's not very surprising to me that it didn't work well as a solo. Put it behind a few lower-level melee bruisers and I'll bet it can use the teleporting/debuff/heal tricks a lot more effectively. Just as it doesn't surprise me that a 20th-level NPC Cleric can put up a pretty good fight, since careful cultivation of a spell list can do a lot for you.

Also, by the DMG's own guidelines (which are acknowledged to be a bit easy), four 17-th level PCs should pretty much trounce a Solar - it's not even a "Deadly" encounter. As others have said CR is not really a difficulty gauge, it's more of a warning that the creature has abilities that could create unsolvable problems for a lower-level party. In the Solar's case, I suspect the high CR is due to the 3/day Resurrection, which paired with, say, even an Adult Silver Dragon could be really difficult to cope with.

 

[Prism]

I second the "what spell"

Well since this was a warlock I'm going for any one of banishment, hold monster, flesh to stone, plane shift or maybe feeblemind. I'm guessing banishment - its what I'd do

Unfortunately the Solar has nothing to protect it except for good saving throws

 

[Minigiant]

5th is design for any one encounter of deadly quality to be a cake.

The difficulty comes when the DM throws so many cakewalk that you end up facing a cakewalk with no resources left.

Its an attrition based design.

 

[Imaculata]

The encounters are only as tough as you design them. A monster of a CR equal to the level of the players is supposed to be a piece of cake, under normal conditions. Its the baseline of difficulty, and you can make it incrementally more difficult, by raising the CR a bit, or adding more creatures of that CR in a group. Terrain also makes a big difference, and the tactics of the monsters. Monsters in my campaigns are cowards. They will flee if they are losing, and they'll abuse height differences, and set up traps.

Play every monster to its strengths. Too few DM's do this. They have a dragon land and get into close combat, and are then surprised that the ancient blue dragon gets chopped up in 4 rounds by a low level party. Or they allow zombies to be shot to pieces from afar. But if the players are surprised, and the zombies mob them after they fell into a crypt, then you've got a whole different fight on your hands.

 

[bganon]

Well since this was a warlock I'm going for any one of banishment, hold monster, flesh to stone, plane shift or maybe feeblemind. I'm guessing banishment - its what I'd do

Unfortunately the Solar has nothing to protect it except for good saving throws

Solars have +17 to Cha saves, it'd literally have to roll a one on a d20 twice in a row to be Banished. Int and Wis saves aren't much lower, Feeblemind or Hold Monster would be difficult. Flesh to Stone might work (Con save is "only" +8) but it still has to fail three saves, and the spell's range is 60 feet - why did the Solar let anybody get that close in the first place? Plane Shift is touch range and has a Cha save, it should be completely useless against a Solar.

If the Warlock did just get phenomenally lucky with a save or die against a solo monster, then... that's what happens with high-level PCs. It's not really about CR, that's an issue with high-level spells in general.