Whoops- WotC does it again

[Asmor]

Given the competition's packaging- blister packs, reusable plastic boxes, you ought to be able to examine your purchase.

You really seem to be missing the point here. Chessex & the like aren't WotC's competitors. WotC's going after an entirely different market. Chessex makes dice for gamers; WotC's providing dice for people who don't know where or how to get dice. Other dice are better in every single way (including, most of the time, price)-- except for availability.

They're two different products aimed at two different markets. In fact, I dare say that WotC may well have preferred not to even have made dice in the first place; they're provided solely as a convenience and to try and make the hobby a bit more accessible.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They're dice... And a bag. And that's what it says they are on the box...This is really a huge problem? Are you afraid WoTC is going to pull a switcheroo and instead of dice and a bag you'll get a moldy pickle or something?

Again, no, no NO.

I said its an issue of wasteful overpackaging, not deception. It seems like an awful lot of box for so little.

They're two different products aimed at two different markets.

No, they're the same product (gaming dice & bags) marketed to 2 different subsections of the same market- experienced players of rpgs vs inexperience players of rpgs.

Re: Plastic vs Paper products.

I didn't say they were a space-saver, exactly, nor am I "greenwashing."

I said they're reusable and let you see what you're buying. I could fit a typical dice bag and a set of dice in a standard card container (such as the one's you'd get from PKK and use for your M:tG cards) and you'd be able to see the dice, have 2 reusable containers, and only a bit of shrink wrap and a label as trash.

Like this one:
http://www.tcbulk.com/scripts/prodview.asp?idproduct=119

And production of paper in various forms- including cardboard- is no less polluting than plastics. Pre-recycling processes being used, paper products comprise 35% of a typical landfill ("Executive Summary: Municipal Solid Waste in the United States: 2005 Facts and Figures". US Environmental Protection Agency (2005)).

Even recycling paper causes pollution due to de-inking and other processes. Other pollutants from paper processing (even recycling) include-
atmospheric emissions of hydrogen sulfide, methyl mercaptan, dimethyl sulfide, dimethyl disulfide, and other volatile sulfur compounds are the cause of the odor characteristic of pulp mills utilizing the kraft process; chemicals that are released into the air and water from most paper mills include carbon monoxide, ammonia, nitrogen oxide, mercury, nitrates, methanol, benzene, volatile organic compounds and chloroform.

There are also dioxins and either chlorine and its byproducts.

Paper mills are among the biggest polluters in Texas, South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama and Florida- right up there with the chemical industries (including petrochemical companies).

Essentially, its nearly a wash between the two industries, pollution-wise. Recycling is good, but anything you can actually reuse or repurpose (like a plastic box) gets you additional points in the battle of two evils.

And if you still don't like clear plastic, you could do the same in a reusable, lidded tin or steel can, such as those used for cookies, candies, cakes, mints or even minis (like Vessel Miniature Cases)- complete all of the same kind of art on the box...possibly even embossed and/or with a window.

Going that route, the boxes themselves could have been produced with a variety of art and been collectible in and of themselves*, possibly even personalized to match the cover art.

* Storage "tins" of all kinds are their own collectibles market already- it wouldn't just be the gamers buying them. You might have eventualy been able to resell the tins at a later date, partially or completely recouping the cost of your set of dice with bag.

 

[Tervin]

Of course the packaging would be more environmentally friendly if it was smaller. But choice of cardboard or plastic is not so easy. Yes, a plastic container might be more reusable to the customer. On the other hand it normally would be harder to recycle in an efficient way. And in a normal household you get more plastic containers than you can find a use for already.

And... the main issue is not cardboard or plastic - it is which cardboard or plastic. There is material that is 100% recycled and material that is 100% made from scratch. There are mills that are able to minimize the pollutions, and those that don't bother.

The biggest deal though is not which material - it is where it is made. My 4th Edition books are printed in the US, which means less environmental strain than those companies that print their books in China. (Will not mention examples, but anyone can check what it says on your products at home...)

 

[racoffin]

They've been doing this for a while... I'm guessing it has to do with wanting to get the dice in the same places they have the books being sold.

They're book shaped so they don't have to be behind the counter. They get to be on the shelf next to the rest of the books. Maybe it helps prevent the "Awwww batteries not included!?!" syndrome...

I imagine that this is the major reasoning for the packaging. They discussed the best placement for the product in book stores (not hobby stores) and decided on a size, which led to the packaging and artwork.

Smaller packaging moves the product away from the books, makes them easier to shoplift and harder to shelve in the store. The cost for the size and "extra" packaging is likely less than the lost revenue from shrink (people stealing from the stores) and customers unhappy because they couldn't find them in the stores.

The tin box idea sounds good, but again that is something that I'd expect to find in a gaming store rather than Barnes and Noble and so forth.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And... the main issue is not cardboard or plastic - it is which cardboard or plastic. There is material that is 100% recycled and material that is 100% made from scratch. There are mills that are able to minimize the pollutions, and those that don't bother.

The biggest deal though is not which material - it is where it is made. My 4th Edition books are printed in the US, which means less environmental strain than those companies that print their books in China. (Will not mention examples, but anyone can check what it says on your products at home...)

I know- the box I linked to is polystyrene- not one of your friendlier plastics. But there are acrylics, polycarbonates, HDPE, LDPE, and others that are both translucent and durable.

OTOH, Bioflex could have been used as the bag & packaging itself, and would have allowed the purchaser to have some idea as to what he's buying.

http://www.bioplastics24.com/content/view/1079/2/

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The tin box idea sounds good, but again that is something that I'd expect to find in a gaming store rather than Barnes and Noble and so forth.

Have you been in a B&N or Borders lately? Besides the gaming books, there are the Star Wars and DDM boxes.

And at the ones in my neighborhood (a suburb of Dallas), there are blisters of plastic animals, obscure chocolates, and even little boxes (from a variety of materials- wood, plastic, leather, bamboo, etc.) for things like writing implements...as well as coffee or certain candies.

A metal box 'o' dice wouldn't be entirely out of place.

 

[racoffin]

Have you been in a B&N or Borders lately? Besides the gaming books, there are the Star Wars and DDM boxes.

And at the ones in my neighborhood (a suburb of Dallas), there are blisters of plastic animals, obscure chocolates, and even little boxes (from a variety of materials- wood, plastic, leather, bamboo, etc.) for things like writing implements...as well as coffee or certain candies.

A metal box 'o' dice wouldn't be entirely out of place.

I've been to both, and yes, they do have the DDM as well as the little boxes of product; however, they have them at the front of the store (for the little tins and boxes.)

The box of dice would fit right in with the other items, that much is true. And, like those items, they will walk right out of the store in droves. Anything smaller than a paperback might as well have a "Free! Please take me!" sign above them. I've worked in three bookstores and in all three, theft outweighed sales on the vast majority of bookmarks, candy, and so forth. Heck, paperbacks tend to get taken as well, and in a few cases shoplifters have been caught trying to steal board games and hardbacks.

Point is, people are already carving open the DDM boxes to snag the minis inside; giving them dice in tiny, easy to conceal packages is all but asking for trouble.

 

[racoffin]

Double Post, Sorry

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've been to both, and yes, they do have the DDM as well as the little boxes of product; however, they have them at the front of the store (for the little tins and boxes.)

IME, location of the small stuff depends upon the store- some of the B&N's in the D/FW Metroplex have all the small goodies in the front. Some place them behind the counter.

Others, however, place some of them within the actual relevant section, so even the tiny boxes may be out of someone's LOS for all practical purposes (unless there's a monitored camera viewing the area).

Ultimately, liftability depends upon the actual shape of the box and the skill of the thief in question . A box shaped like the PKK box wouldn't exactly present a slender, concealable profile or fit in most pockets (as I found out in my M:tG tournament days).

Still, shrinkage is going to be an issue anyway- dice are among the theft leaders in game stores too.

Besides, I know I can easily fit a book into my cargo pants or shorts- I used to carry "fun" books (or sometimes CDs and a player) that way when I was in Law school and grad school for use in downtime. Producing a whole book from a pants pocket usually got me a few looks of surprise- they pretty much don't show up.

That new package? It is definitely small enough to walk away in someone's pocket- especially in winter.

And Heaven help you if you actually have a "Booster" in your store, targeting your wares.

 

[Dire Bare]

People have been complaining about the lack of content or quality in some of the recent supplemental releases from WotC, like the "8 Page" 4Ed Character Record Sheets.

But have you seen this product?

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Premium-Dice-Accessory/dp/0786948744

Here, the problem isn't a lack of content or overcharging, its over-packaging!

Instead of following the lead of almost all of the other dice manufacturers and delivering their product in a nice, compact, translucent and reusable container, they give us a bunch of cardboard and plastic around air.

Do they hate trees or something? Or did they have extra paper products taking up warehouse space after going digital with Dragon and Dungeon?

I suppose I'm extra-sensitive to this- I remember when CDs came in 12" tall long boxes that were mostly disposable cardboard and plastic wrap. Done "for security" or to make efficient use of the older record bins, it was nonetheless very wasteful and bad for the environment.

Eventually, pressure from the environmentally concerned got that packaging reduced to the simple jewelbox...or the reusable tall plastic containers you see in places like Sam's or some bookstores.

You know, there are really better things to get upset over . . . or worse things, actually.