Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?

[Darren]

Hmm...

I replied on page 2 already, but I thought I'd add something, for what it's worth.

After reading several people comment positively on issue #326, I went and got a copy for myself. I had not purchased Dragon since the recent format change. It looked promising on the magazine rack. I like the cleaner layout at least.

Unfortunately nothing in Table Talk really grabbed my attention (well, ok, I liked Nodwick). Under Command, Silicon Sorcery, and the two-page ad for the latest Realms novel were skipped entirely after a couple of paragraphs.

Next came the Features articles. The Dungeon Delver's Guide might be useful to new players just getting ready for their first delve, but most of the content seemed painfully obvious. (On carrying supplies: "... dispensing equipment throughout the party provides the easiest way of dealing with such problems, with strong characters carrying more but weaker characters still taking on some of the load.") Down the Drain suffered similar problems. ("Unless the entire party has darkvision, you will need a light source of some kind.") The Get Lost! article was better, though I think it could have benefitted significantly by including a few diagrams of the actual historical labyrinths that were discussed.

Some of the stuff in Familiars caught my attention, but not for very good reasons. The Shaper of Form prestige class was an interesting idea, but anything that grants the ability to Disjunction an item with no save is right out in my game, even if it doesn't come with full spell progression. More of the obvious in class acts (Barbarians: "When focusing on power, make Strength your highest ability score."), as well as the obscure (I'm still trying to figure out why a Ranger with the Throwing Style combat option would want Quick Draw at 2nd level but wait until 6th to get Point Blank Shot.).

It seems even more apparent after reading this issue that Dragon simply isn't written for me. I think part of this is due to the length of the articles: they're just too short to get into a good, meaty topic. For example, we got one page about the Historical Holy Knight. We're told that these prototypical paladins "performed countless impossibly heroic feats," but if we want to know anything more apparently we will need to read The Song of Roland or Dante's Inferno. The level of writing seems wrong too. I've been playing D&D for only a few years, but I've figured out the importance of marching order, the utility of 10-foot poles, and the need for a light source in dark, creepy places. I'm ready for more, to advance to 8th level and get some real power, so to speak.

So what would get me more interested in Dragon? Well, Dragon's biggest competitors for my seven gaming dollars right now are the PDFs on RPGnow and old AD&D supplements for sale on ebay that I can mine for ideas and fluff. Recent PDF purchases include some of the more popular Ronin Arts PDFs like the 101 Collection and also a neat little document called Tournaments, Fairs, and Taverns that several people from ENworld are well acquainted with. A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe is probably also something I will pick up eventually. If Dragon can somehow compare favorably with these and similar products, then I'll start making regular purchases.

Perhaps a section just for new gamers would be nice, rather than having so many articles telling experienced gamers things they already know. Sort of a Sage Advice Lite or something like that. I'm not sure about this. Balancing coverage for old and new gamers looks to be tough. Good, useful content, exclusive to Dragon would be helpful. It's a bit of a disincentive to buy when I know that the very best new rules are likely to end up in a Wizards hardback. Also, bump up the entertainment value a bit. For example, I was never a great Polyhedron fan when it and Dungeon were bundled together, but it did have a great article from time to time. My very favorite happens to be Beasts of the Scarlet Brotherhood from Poly #165. Why? The neat little sketches of the beasts with the ghoulishly fun little commentary about each from the Fiend-Sage. It's difficult to explain, but it just seemed like that was the perfect way for a magazine article to write up some new creatures. It exactly nailed the style/substance ratio. Or maybe I'm just a little strange that way.

Anyway, good luck with Dragon. I suspect that changes that would make me happy would upset quite a number of the people who enjoy the magazine now, but I'll keep checking it out from time to time.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Polyhedron is dead; at least in terms of being included in Dungeon or Dragon. Let it stay that way. Yes, it has its diehard fans. But those diehard fans are dwarfed by the number of people who DON'T want to see it in the D&D mags. Go create a standalone Poly if it's so important; you'll quickly discover that there aren't enough people willing to buy it to make it viable. Why do you think it was tacked on to other mags? It certainly can't stand on its own.

To me, IMO, Poly has always been garbage. Back when it came with membership in the RPGA and then when it was in Dragon. I didn't like it and I resented having it take up space in D&D mags. Getting rid of Poly was one of the prime reasons I resubscribed to Dungeon.

Poly is dead. Let's move on...

 

[Erik Mona]

To me, IMO, Poly has always been garbage. Back when it came with membership in the RPGA and then when it was in Dragon. I didn't like it and I resented having it take up space in D&D mags. Getting rid of Poly was one of the prime reasons I resubscribed to Dungeon.

Poly is dead. Let's move on...

Right back atcha, pal.

It's not coming back. Don't sweat it.

--Erik

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

First and foremost is the fact that (most of) it isn't Open Content. I don't know why this is really an issue with me, as I don't really have any plans to publish anything, but I just find it kinda... I don't use a lot of WOTCs books for the same reason.

 

[thundershot]

See, in my home, EVERYTHING is open content. I have no aspirations about publishing, so every book on my shelf is considered to be open content for our own purposes. Funny thing is, even most books that ARE open content never get used by anyone else anyway. We still have several steam books, several whatever books... You still have to play pick and choose..


Chris

 

[Mystery Man]

It's not coming back. Don't sweat it.

--Erik

Praise the Lord.

 

[Larcen]

Disclaimer: I have not read all 16 pages (!) of this so if the following suggestions have already been made, simply add my voice to theirs.

I no longer subscribe. Instead if I see an interesting Dragon magazine in a magazine rack, I buy it. But I don’t necessarily seek it out because I have many other D&D things to read already. Ever hear of the song "Video Killed the Radio Star"? This is a case of "Internet and OGC Killed the Magazine Star". With so much material to be found online and in all the published OGC stuff, there is already too much information for me to absorb from one month to the next.

But, there is an opportunity here. I say embrace the OGC stuff. Don't fight or compete with it. Here's how...

You want to help me enough to want to subscribe? Then help me filter all the good OGC stuff from the bad. Have much more reviews of all the latest 3rd party stuff out there, both books and software. Real, good, in depth reviews. Help me (and especially newbies) to choose and use the massive amounts of crunch already available. Keep a Hall of Fame page for capsulized "must have" stuff. Give me that and less crunch.

I know that there are plenty of review websites out there, this one included, but you guys are in a much more elevated and visible position. Heck, why don’t you review the review sites! Make it a new department called “D20 Online Connection” or something. You guys should be poised to be The place to go for reviewing, categorizing, and using all things D20.

Example:

Player1: "Hey, Bob, what do you think of this new D20 product that is coming out this month? It looks good, but I wonder what's really in it, how can we use it, and will it fit into our campaign theme?"

Player2: "I got my eye on that too, dude. Can't wait until the next Dragon comes out to see what they say about it. I really liked their article last month on how to incorporate, expand upon, and balance out this other stuff over here."

You guys should really be shaking hands with and talking to all the D20 publishers out there. If anyone should have there finger on the D20 community’s pulse, it should be Dragon magazine. I would even go so far as to say make your magazine 80% reviews, how-tos, and designer interviews… and 20% new rules content. I would be happy.

Keep Dungeon mostly for WOTC’s new ideas and make Dragon a repository of mostly everyone else’s. Ok, maybe I am exaggerating here but you get the idea. Make the magazine more of a “D20 News” source. When you wake up on some mornings don’t think “what new and exciting article can we come up with this month?”, instead think “what new and exciting ideas has the D20 community come up with?”

Oh yeah, one more thing along these lines. Take a tip from Video game review magazines and rate each product by categories. Instead of Gameplay, Graphics, Sound, etc, categorize all the D20 products on such things as Target Audience, Setting Style, Crunch level, Writing, Layout, Artwork, etc.

Thanks for listening and good luck.

 

[The Sigil]

But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.

If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.

So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

You're probably not going to like to hear this, and I hope it doesn't make me sound like I hold grudges, but...

1 - The appearance of the words "s---" and "f---" in Dragon Magazine (the Martin excerpt and the issue before it, IIRC) was the proximate cause of the decision to terminate my subscription. When I invite you into my home - including via the printed magazine medium, I expect a certain decorum... while you're going to be accessible to my kids and I don't want THEM reading those kinds of words, more importantly, I don't want to read those words. They have no place in my home, regardless of the circumstance.

2 - This was exacerbated by the attitude of the Dragon staff towards criticism sent their way over the decision to include those words in their publication. The attitude I got was, "if you don't like it, you're a prude and we know better and are more enlightened anyways." In other words, the staff did not apologize and in fact seemed to want an apology from me for being offended by their decision to use words (some of the "seven words you can't say on TV," by the way) that are commonly known to be offensive. That took my attitude from, "well, I'm annoyed, but I'm also forgiving so I'll give them a second chance" to "well, I'm annoyed and it's clear they not only don't WANT a second chance, they intend to do it again so there's no point in giving them a second chance."

Again, call me grudge-holding and prudish if you must, but you DID ask.

3 - While this was not the proximate cause of my allowing my subscription to lapse, the "Dragon issue themed so as to plug the latest WotC offering" had gotten so blatant as to cause me irritation.

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

Again, you're not going to like this, but you asked...

If Dragon loudly and publicly apologizes for using some of the "seven words," displays a contrite attitude about it ("we apologize to those we have offended and are sorry for our poor reaction to the criticism when it was first raised") AND makes it clear that editorial policy from this time forth will be to edit them from its publications, I'll give you another look. Until I have your collective assurance that those words will not be used in my home, however, I see no reason to give you another look.

If you don't like it, that's fine. I respect your decision to do that. I'm just being blunt and to-the-point here in what I want before I re-subscribe so that there is no misunderstanding. If you decide you can't do that, and/or it's not worth the bother just for one subscriber, that is your decision.

BTW, I dropped Dungeon on the grounds that I shouldn't support a company that does business in a way I disapprove of - and because I had no guarantee that those offensive words wouldn't wind up in Dungeon as well. So you can get a "double whammy" if you get me back.

I very much appreciate your time and attention.

And I appreciate that you've got a listening ear.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to make my cause for disenchantment crystal clear.

Thanks,

Spencer "The Sigil" Cooley
Ex-Dungeon Subscriber
Ex-Dragon Subscriber

 

[Demonix]

I used to buy Dragon magazine each month but all the shops in my area do not get the magazine any longer... a pity as I liked the magazine.

I tried to subscribe to Dungeon magazine but ive been waiting months for an issue - it looks like Paizo's distribution network is either very poor or they dont give a stuff about their customers, either way I'm annoyed about it!

Thats my 2p's worth.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

You're probably not going to like to hear this, and I hope it doesn't make me sound like I hold grudges, but...

1 - The appearance of the words "s---" and "f---" in Dragon Magazine (the Martin excerpt and the issue before it, IIRC) was the proximate cause of the decision to terminate my subscription. When I invite you into my home - including via the printed magazine medium, I expect a certain decorum... while you're going to be accessible to my kids and I don't want THEM reading those kinds of words, more importantly, I don't want to read those words. They have no place in my home, regardless of the circumstance.

2 - This was exacerbated by the attitude of the Dragon staff towards criticism sent their way over the decision to include those words in their publication. The attitude I got was, "if you don't like it, you're a prude and we know better and are more enlightened anyways." In other words, the staff did not apologize and in fact seemed to want an apology from me for being offended by their decision to use words (some of the "seven words you can't say on TV," by the way) that are commonly known to be offensive. That took my attitude from, "well, I'm annoyed, but I'm also forgiving so I'll give them a second chance" to "well, I'm annoyed and it's clear they not only don't WANT a second chance, they intend to do it again so there's no point in giving them a second chance."

Again, call me grudge-holding and prudish if you must, but you DID ask.

3 - While this was not the proximate cause of my allowing my subscription to lapse, the "Dragon issue themed so as to plug the latest WotC offering" had gotten so blatant as to cause me irritation.


Again, you're not going to like this, but you asked...

If Dragon loudly and publicly apologizes for using some of the "seven words," displays a contrite attitude about it ("we apologize to those we have offended and are sorry for our poor reaction to the criticism when it was first raised") AND makes it clear that editorial policy from this time forth will be to edit them from its publications, I'll give you another look. Until I have your collective assurance that those words will not be used in my home, however, I see no reason to give you another look.

If you don't like it, that's fine. I respect your decision to do that. I'm just being blunt and to-the-point here in what I want before I re-subscribe so that there is no misunderstanding. If you decide you can't do that, and/or it's not worth the bother just for one subscriber, that is your decision.

BTW, I dropped Dungeon on the grounds that I shouldn't support a company that does business in a way I disapprove of - and because I had no guarantee that those offensive words wouldn't wind up in Dungeon as well. So you can get a "double whammy" if you get me back.

And I appreciate that you've got a listening ear.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to make my cause for disenchantment crystal clear.

Thanks,

Spencer "The Sigil" Cooley
Ex-Dungeon Subscriber
Ex-Dragon Subscriber

I just wanted to give a big AMEN to what The Sigil said. He wrote more succinctly than I would have.

I just wanted to add that the sealed section issues also were a deal breaker with me. As a subscriber I had no choice in whether or not I received it.

I have had to physically cut pages from my Dragon and Dungeon magazines to the point where I don't know why they're on my shelf anymore.

Thanks for listening Erik.

For the record I don't think I'd ever resubscribe as I think I've just outgrown both magazines.