I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Turtlejay said:Uh, point taken Kamikaze Midget? It'd be nice if you contributed something though, since calling out my specific examples doesn't really touch on the point of the discussion...
Well, it does, since the reason you don't hate rituals is because you have made them better than they are written to be.
Which is great, but that's a solution for you, at your table, with your specific group.
It doesn't mean that rituals don't deserve the hate. Perhaps if the other millions of people playing D&D hadn't thought of or implemented your specific fixes, they hate the rituals, because they are still expensive, bland, and overly specific. Because they're not at your table, haven't thought of your solutions, and so, they still have the problems that your group has fixed.
Turtlejay said:And in all seriousness, that was just a good example of a DM saying yes. Perhaps my examples were all colored by that, but what can I say? I have had extraordinary luck with super DMs!
Totally right, and great for you, but if you want an answer to the question, perhaps this is it: people have ritual hate because not everyone has a super DM who bends the rules to make rituals useful for people who like rituals.
Which is a problem. Having fun shouldn't require an excellent DM. If you can't get a good result without good DM improvisation, then the thing itself is borked.
Garthanos said:Including ritual components in treasures was part of the design not a fix...
I don't see "ritual components" anywhere in the list of treasure parcels, but maybe I'm not squinting hard enough.
S'mon said:I very much like them as they are. They reduce the super-high-magic feel of 3e (and to a large extent prior editions) down to something that finally fits my world. Players only use them when necessary, eg to Raise a dead PC, and NPCs only use them when necessary, ie when plot-useful. They solve a huge problem with prior editions in that I can now have an NPC "high priestess" or "great wizard" with great magical ability but no combat power.
I totally agree with all these high points, but like I've said before, I think Rituals are a stupendous idea that fails a bit in execution.
We need a different way to "pay" for rituals, one that is assumed in the system.
We need rituals divided more strongly into flavorful effects, and spread out amongst more classes. The upcoming "Martial Practices" is probably a really good use of this idea, judging from the bit in the character builder. Segregating rituals by power source (which is almost done with rituals depending on trained skills right now) is another good element. They need to take this farther, and make the rituals stronger. This might not even be a problem in the next few years. Rituals need to be more strongly tied to character archetype.
Rituals need to have an affect on the game. This is a philosophical change more than anything. 4e's main way of doing anything is via encounters (mostly combat encounters) and rituals are inherently isolated from encounters, so you don't ever need to use a ritual for anything, so anything you invest in a ritual is pointless unless your DM makes a special exception just for you. This is a deep divide that affects the structure of the game, the number of assumed combats, the nature of XP, even the powers system itself.
I like rituals. I just never get to use them in my games as a player, because the DM doesn't make a special exception for them, or often as a DM, because by RAW, they're not worth the effort it takes to get them.
I banished all GP costs to use a ritual in my game, and instantly saw an uptick in use. Not a big uptick, but still. I personally want to encourage their use, because I do like the way they make you feel like an actual well-rounded character who can do things other than blow up goblins, who can help, in a uniquely archetypal way, in situations other than combat. I love that you don't have to allocate combat resources to them anymore, but I still want them to be important to characters accomplishing their goals.
By RAW, they're not.
I think in my mind, Rituals and Skill Challenges might be combined into one big system that is then divided into types of conflicts the PC's might overcome that don't involve combat, but I'm still early in my thinking on that. I think the strengths of the Ritual system will help offset the problems with the Skill Challenge system, and vice-versa.