Why all the Second Edition Haters?

[VorpalBunny]

There's no hate for 2e here. I ran a FR campaign for eight years using the 2e rules, running players who were playing kits. We added some Skills and Powers and Combat and Tactics later on but not because we felt the system was lacking something without those rules.

As a matter of fact, I had less balance issues with the 2e rules than currently with 3e.

 

[SSquirrel]

However after getting to know the system and feel of 3e D&D I discovered Planescape (and to a lesser extent RL and DS) and realized just how much of a soul 3e lacked. Mechanics-wise it blew the socks off of the 2e stuff, but it was seemingly devoid of ingenuity, flavor, fluff, and the sheer detail that 2e products oozed (especially Planescape).

I've never played a 2e game, but I get more use from my 2e books than I do half of my 3e books. 2e flavor text and metaplots = brilliant. 3e is sorely lacking this in many cases.

However... that said, I've been more and more impressed with the quality and depth that FR has gotten in 3e. There's a high standard for most of the books for that setting, and I must comment on that.

As well, the 3e Manual of the Planes was very very good, though simply for page length it couldn't contain the depth of material that Planescape had created and handed to it on a silver platter. It's my favorite 3e book, hands down, and hopefully the Planar Handbook this summer is just as good. I expect it to be so, at least with respect to some things. *gets a knowing glimmer in one eye but says nothing*

Well you have to remember that 3E is designed so that everything is viewed more as a toolbox than a finished product per se. So instead of saying "Hey here's an entire planar campaign for us to support enjoy" they say "Hey here's the Manual of the Planes 3E style. We'll provide some examples, give a lot of technical advice and leave it all up to you." This is totally in favor of the DM IMO. The DM can make up everything exactly as they want it and not have someone whining about how it should be blah blah blah. Similarly the planar rules will seem far less ingenious now than they did back when Planescape came about simply because Planescape came first and it was all tied together already.

The FR books are pretty nice, but the FR flavor has always been pretty good. Flavor text needs no conversion and that is why you always see people pulling out all the old area books.

In 1E Greyhawk was king for years and then people finally started saying they would like to see more worlds. This brought about the purchase of FR (Greenwood was foolish to sell so cheaply) and that quickly became the core setting for D&D. 2nd Ed was very odd the way every game world had drastically different rulesets, but really a lot of current d20 products do the same. Fundamental stuff is the same in D&D, Conan and Midnight, but how they go about many things is quite different. Same with Planescape, Birthright, Red Steel, Mystara, Dark Sun, Spell Jammer, Ravenloft, Dragonlance (1E as well I know) etc. There was this massive explosion of game worlds in 2E b/c people had responded so well to FR and wanted more and by golly TSR was determined to deliver on that. While I wouldn't have minded if they had supported some of them slightly better or at least advertised them better (Planescape and Spelljammer come to mind here), they did at least get the basic product and some supplements out for everything.

Other 2E aspects>Kits I found to be fun, but many of them were just plain crap. I hate arbitrary rulings and the multi/dual class systema nd level limits seems so arbitrary its unreal. Why can't anyone but Human be a Paladin? They don't have anyone who follows a good god and wants to be uber goodie goodie? Get real.

Worst example of dual classing is actually in 1E with the Bard from the back of the PHB next to the insane Psionics section. 15 or better Strength, Dex, Wisdom and Charisma. 12 Int and 10 Constitution. Go up to Fighter 5, then prior to 8th level switch to thief. Then between 5th and 9th level switch to druid. Oh yeah and they're always Neutral of some variety.

I liked the unarmed system in Complete Fighters...but they made a new one for Complete Priests and then ANOTHER one for Complete Gladiators in Dark Sun. Yeesh. Complete Necromancer is still probably the coolest complete book and I made sure to d/l a copy of that when WOTC put it up for free.

The Battlesystem referrals everywhere was lame. Making your own class in the DMG was easily done, but pretty easy to twink out. Players Options just made me boggle. I mean, people considered it easier to double the # of attributes and such and basically point buy your character? Uhm...no.

I DO think that prestige classes are a better system than kits as is a single class system to start with (altho the Gestalt idea in UA is interesting). People whine that they can't start as a Wizard/Fighter (besides the 0 level rules in the DMG) and to that I say wah. PrCs are perfectly fine so long as the DM actually takes the time to go thru and say yea or nay to different ones. I went thru all 5 splat books for feats/PrCs and weapons to consider for an upcoming AU game. Doesn't take long to decide on that kind of stuff. If a player has a PrC from some source, require that you look at it first and if you don'town said source and agree to it, you need a photocopy so you can refer to it as needed.

Unlike some I LIKE having rules for nearly everything. How much damage needs done to cut your way out of a stomach? Look in the MM, its there. What kind of action is it to light a molotov cocktail and will someone get afree shot on me? PHB. Yes rules lawyers will always pipe up with what the books say, but same thing in other editions. DM word is always final, just make sure you're consistent. I'm glad I don't have to keep up with a vast volume of house rules like in the old days. Right now my house rules for 3E consist of maybe 1-2 pages. Tops.

Right now tho I'm not even playing 3E, I'm waiting to run Arcana Unearthed b/c I haven't been as excited about any product since 3E first came out and before that not since I played my first game of OD&D back in '87 or maybe the first time I saw RIFTS in '91.

Ok this was long and i tried to avoid rambling, but I DID actually read all 4 pages before posting so I had a lot to say.

Hagen

 

[Orius]

There was this massive explosion of game worlds in 2E b/c people had responded so well to FR and wanted more and by golly TSR was determined to deliver on that.

The impression I got from Dragon #315 was that many of these world were released because T$R was looking for another Dragonlance to milk for cash.

I liked the unarmed system in Complete Fighters...but they made a new one for Complete Priests and then ANOTHER one for Complete Gladiators in Dark Sun.

And two more in Combat & Tactics and The Complete Ninja's Handbook. I believe however, that complete Priest was a reprint of Complete fighter, and Complete Ninja was based on that same system, and added 1e OA inspired martial arts.

The Battlesystem referrals everywhere was lame.

Especially given that by the mid-90s BS was OOP.

Players Options just made me boggle. I mean, people considered it easier to double the # of attributes and such and basically point buy your character?

Subabilites were one of the worst aspects of PO. Especially the Strength/Muscle crap. Basically, increase your Str up to 2 points for attack and damage rolls, while decreasing it by 2 points for encumbrance purposes. Who uses encumbrance?

Otherwise, the system wasn't that bad.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Subabilites were one of the worst aspects of PO. Especially the Strength/Muscle crap. Basically, increase your Str up to 2 points for attack and damage rolls, while decreasing it by 2 points for encumbrance purposes. Who uses encumbrance?

I enforce it on my players though it is obvious some have never played with it before. One character didn't realise that he had bought so much equipment that his character had exceeded his MAX load by about 70 lbs.

To tell the truth I liked the subability split. When I was in basic training I knew all sorts of guys in my squadron who were really strong but had absolutely NO endurance. They'd be the guys complaining the loudest at the end of a long march about the gear they had to carry. Some were both strong and had a lot of endurance and then there were the guys who looked scrawny but never seemed to quit. The subability split made sense. Charisma REALLY made sense by splitting it into Appearance and Leadership. If I remember correctly Appearance gave you a bonus to initial reaction but Leadership gave you more henchmen. Makes sense... I've known people who were really attractive but once they opened their mouths I've wanted to do nothing but walk away.

Is it just me or does it seem that "Players" like 3E more while "DMs" remember 2E fondly?

 

[Orius]

To tell the truth I liked the subability split. When I was in basic training I knew all sorts of guys in my squadron who were really strong but had absolutely NO endurance. They'd be the guys complaining the loudest at the end of a long march about the gear they had to carry. Some were both strong and had a lot of endurance and then there were the guys who looked scrawny but never seemed to quit. The subability split made sense. Charisma REALLY made sense by splitting it into Appearance and Leadership. If I remember correctly Appearance gave you a bonus to initial reaction but Leadership gave you more henchmen. Makes sense... I've known people who were really attractive but once they opened their mouths I've wanted to do nothing but walk away.

IMO, subabilities looked good on paper, but in reality they made things more complicated. The Strength split was the worst of the lot, because a lot of groups generally do ignore encumbrance, which really should be heavily enforced in PO.

[qoute]Is it just me or does it seem that "Players" like 3E more while "DMs" remember 2E fondly?

Not really, I tend to DM more often, and I prefer 3e.

 

[Ssyleia]

I Love Second Edition

My last 2nd Edition character was a Level 19 Mage with the Wu-Jen Kit and martial Arts from the Gladiator's Handbook and a couple of nonweapon proficiencies from Oriental Adventures. She could deal 1,700 points of damage in a single round. Unarmed, that is and her hands counted as +3 weapons...

*smile*

I have very fond memories playing her in a low-combat campaign - the DM tried to break her vow of celibacy every single gaming session - *ROTF* but this kind of character is exactly the reason why we play 3rd Edition now - or, to be precisely, 3.5.

2nd Edition was great - yet it was not the penultimate. As game material being published became more and more inconsistent with older game material, loopholes in the rules tended to arise. After 11 years of dutiful service, we were all as glad to retire 2nd Edition as we were playing the rules...

However, I must confess that I miss the concept "Kits" of 2nd Edition - I hope 4th Edition has them, when we get it in 2-5 years... If I had to choose between Kits and Prestige Classes I would opt for Kits...

Also, it was a bit strange at first with the new rule. Every DM who instantly recognizes the following string will probably agree: "1d4+4/1d4+4/2d6"

BTW, my players were grateful for the hosing of some spells from 3.0 to 3.5 since usually the enemies were putting them to best use ;-)))

 

[Ottergame]

Until 3E came along I didn't really know how clunky 2E's rules had gotten. I did, however, run many fun/entertaining 2E games, enjoyed the computer support (Core Rules 2.0), and liked the direction the rules were going regarding character customization (skills & powers may not have been well-balanced but you could build a unique character at least). I don't think I could go back to the 2E rules. That said, I often go back to my 2E FR supplements for more in-depth "fluff."

I think there was a different mentality about the role of the DM in 2E as compared to 3E (the DM was more "in charge of everything" in 2E -- because there was less spelled out in the rules the DM had to make up a lot of things on the fly, which was fine for an experienced DM).

Exactly! My friends and I had all figured that Wizards was going to mess the game up, and make it a hack and slash power gamers paradise. But the day the PHB came out, we bought copies and played. And I suddenly realized how much frustration and contempt I had for 2ed edition, now that I was playing something vastly superior. Rules that -made sense-, options and not restrictions, a reason to play humans and fighters!!! It was such a breath of fresh air.

I remember reading stuff about 3rd Edition when I was still playing 2ed. Everyone I knew all had the same thought. "This is going to be like Magic the Gathering, Wizards is going to pump out a bunch of expensive books and expect everyone to buy them." It was until a while after 3rd came out that I realized that it had been TSR that had been dumping out a lot of expensive books and expecting everyone to buy them. WOTC wiped the slate clean, they produced a coherant set of rules that were reasonably balanced and fun. Although the bungled up a bit on the revisions (not really compatible with the old books), 3.5 is all I will play now.

 

[Tallok]

I dind't lay much 2e, but read a lot. I loved the class books, and the character kits for rangers, even if they were unbalanced.

 

[Zappo]

Well for starters, I never played a single game of D&D till 3rd ed had already been out for a few months. *grin*

However after getting to know the system and feel of 3e D&D I discovered Planescape (and to a lesser extent RL and DS) and realized just how much of a soul 3e lacked. Mechanics-wise it blew the socks off of the 2e stuff, but it was seemingly devoid of ingenuity, flavor, fluff, and the sheer detail that 2e products oozed (especially Planescape).

True. But I don't think it's a bad thing. It simply means that 3E is supposed to be played with a separate campaign setting. That's much better than having a strong implied flavor; games with a strong flavor built into the rules are very difficult to adapt to different settings. The class/race/level restrictions of old editions are a prime example.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I love the edition wars so much that I thought I'd bump this back to the top.