why anti-art? (slightly ot ranrish)

[Drawmack]

As far as the thread that inspired this thread:

Dr. Midnight I do not think that this:

I'm getting no business from you cheap RPG punks

I the most diplomatic way to begin a post. I am sure is was intended as a gest, matter of fact I found it amussing. However I understand sarcasm and not all do. Reading this right off the top could set someone defensive and their posts reflect that.

As far as the price of art goes, it is much the same as my job, squishy.

If a client sees the work happen they are happy to pay for it. For example would you be more willing to pay $100 for a poster sized piece or an 8x5 piece.

Well what if the poster sized pice didn't have a whole lot of intricate detail and was mostly broad flowing strokes (I'm not an artist I'm basing this on tatoos and how they are priced so I could be wrong) therefore the big piece took less time then the intricatly detailed 8x5.

Another thing to consider is the materials. What if the 8x5 was done on high quality canvas and it mounted in a golden oak frame while the poster sized on is on posterboard? What about the paints used as well?

One school of though it that art is worth whatever the person selling it says it is worth. There is absolutely no way for anyone other then the artist to quantify the value of a painting.

The other school of though is that art is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. This hold up better with classics like Rembrant. Though some popular artists fit into this school as well.

I write computer programs for a living and people assume that with programs if it looks simple it is simple. I can easily get a couple hundred dollars for a spinning logo but people don't want to pay for the administration area that took the real time to program.

It is precieved value. Unless you can come up with a way to quantify the price of each individual piece some people will never see the value.

 

[DanMcS]

It's insulting, but the people asking don't really KNOW it's insulting, so you can't kick them through a stack of drywall.

See, now I have to disagree with this. You can ALWAYS kick them through a stack of drywall. Sometimes it's even necessary, but a lot of the time, it's just fun.

 

[Dr Midnight]

See, now I have to disagree with this. You can ALWAYS kick them through a stack of drywall. Sometimes it's even necessary, but a lot of the time, it's just fun.

Aaaaand I have a new best friend.

 

[Sammael99]

Art and Illustration

If I may chime in, I suspect there's also a perceived difference between art and illustration. I'm not saying that Dr. Midnight's character pics are not art from his point of view, but I suspect they are not art from the point of view of his potential customers, they are illustration.

In other words, someone who buys a 250 page RPG book for $30 with roughly one color illustration per page makes the assumption that each illustration is worth less than $1. That's the only reference they have.

Now last time I was in Moscow, I checked paintings by a Georgian painter that were really really awesome. They were $400 and I really didn't think that was expensive. Unfortunately, I till didn't have the money to buy one. Drat !

[pimp]
Speaking of art, check out the art in my new

Fading Suns Story Hour
[/pimp]

 

[BButler]

And never underestimate people's desire to get something for nothing. It happens everywhere, not just in the visual art world. Take, for instance, my usual cocktail party conversation:

Partygoer: What do you do?
Me: I'm a lawyer.
Partygoer: You know, I've got this situation with the bank . . .

The same thing happens to doctors and others who sell knowledge.

For the record, Clay, having seen your dice roller at the Ohio Gameday and photos you've posted of your other work, you do very high quality work.

 

[alsih2o]

For the record, Clay, having seen your dice roller at the Ohio Gameday and photos you've posted of your other work, you do very high quality work.

for the record- when i posted pics of the dierollers i got several emails from folks wondering why they couldn't get one cheaper. one fellow (whose name i did not recognize) went so far as to call the price "ridiculous"

after my materials and such, assuming that putting those ina kiln that someone else is paying to fire i figure i am making about $3. this is assuming i am willing to work for less than minimum wage.

 

[Piratecat]

for the record- when i posted pics of the dierollers i got several emails from folks wondering why they couldn't get one cheaper. one fellow (whose name i did not recognize) went so far as to call the price "ridiculous"

Then someone is smoking crack. Your work is beautiful.

Kidcthulhu and I have a theory that I've never regretted. Whenever we see a piece of artwork that we really love, we always buy it, even if it's more than we expect! This hasn't been a mistake once. Unfortunately, we regret not buying a particular painting that we saw once before we adopted this guideline, so we try to make up for it at other times.

 

[BButler]

after my materials and such, assuming that putting those ina kiln that someone else is paying to fire i figure i am making about $3. this is assuming i am willing to work for less than minimum wage.

Ouch!

Speaking of your work, how can someone like me, who simply adores hand made pottery, buy some of your work?

 

[Alcamtar]

I have no problems with what artists charge, even ignoring production costs. Hey, it's their work, they can charge what they want.

The problem is that art is a unnecessary luxury. Personally, I'd happily pay for an RPG with no art at all. If it does include art, cool, a freebie, but I don't want to shell out any extra cash for it. And if it does include art, I'll either praise or criticize the selections, as appropriate. There is good art and bad art, and if you want to clutter up my game with art -- especially if you're charging me extra to do so -- that gives me the right to criticize it. That said, art can be very cool, and I *have* bought game books solely for the art, or even just to get one piece I really liked.

A product is only worth what the market is willing to pay for it, and if you want to make a living you're going to have to bow to market realities. I can't just go out and write any old software I want and expect to be able to sell it or make a great living off it -- I have to give people something they want at a price they're willing to pay. If art isn't selling because it is perceived as too expensive, then it *is* too expensive. And if an artist cannot make a decent living because nobody will pay for his stuff, he'd be well advised to go into a different line of work.

 

[Umbran]

It is precieved value.

On the nose! Give this guy a monkey for his trouble.

The value of art to the buyer is terribly, terribly subjective. For the artist, time and materials set a portion of the price. To the commercial buyer the thing is likely thought of as an investment, which helps set his price. For the guy who is buying it to hang on his wall at home, though, the only value of the thing is in his own head. And now we can use the old saw in close to it's original meaning - there's no accounting for taste.

If it makes the artists feel any better, they aren't the only ones who get asked to provide services for free. It happens all the time to verterinarians.

Add on top of this the fact that haggling is pretty much a lost art to us. Perhaps some of those "give it to me for free" would be productive haggling sessions if folks knew what they were about?