why anti-art? (slightly ot ranrish)

[Dr. NRG]

I think the basic problem is that there is a surplus of artists. More people become artists than the market will bear, driving the perceived value of art down below the level of the cost of producing such art. QUOTE]

This hits it right on the head, as far as I can tell. Not only are there more artists than the market will bear, each of them naturally thinks that their art is worth buying. Don't get me wrong, I believe that matters of taste are not rationally arguable, meaning that each artist has a perfectly valid right to insist on whatever price they choose for the art they are attempting to sell. What I don't agree with is that I should necessarily be expected to agree with them. Perhaps it's bad etiquette to haggle with them, perhaps not; it depends on the context.

I hire digital artists sometimes as part of my job. Each and every artist that submits a demo reel of their art thinks they deserve a job. They believe that their art is worth my paying them. I disagree with the majority of them. My strong inclination is to tell anyone who is thinking of taking up art full time to realize that if they don't love doing art enough to do it for free, they are in the wrong field. If they do love it that much, they probably have the potential to get good enough, and appeal to enough people, to make some kind of living at it.

I have not knowingly seen the art of any participant in this thread/board, and am not taking aim at anyone with this post.

On a side note, this topic is also near and dear to the hearts of writers, musicians, dancers, actors, tatooists, and mimes. If you find yourself frowning at the comparison, keep in mind that people in each of these professions are certain that they are not being paid what their work is worth... I am not saying they're wrong, either.

NRG

 

[Lord Pendragon]

There's a difference between:

"That's more than I'm willing to pay."

and

"That's more than the art is worth."

One is perfectly understandable. One is insulting.

 

[seasong]

It works like a bell curve, which every D&D fan should be familiar with .

3: Art has no worth. Free only. Believed to be blind as a bat.
4-5: I'll spend $10 for a poster, sure. If it looks kewl.
6-9: $20 for some custom art, maybe, or a cool-looking item, but really, mass production is the only way to go.
10-11: $50? A bit expensive, but it's a really nice piece and fits what I want. I'm on the fence.
12-15: $50 custom? Hell yeah! Gimme! Any more than that, and I get on the fence again. Art does have value, but I can't see spending more than a day's wages for it.
16-17: I've got money, taste and a fine appreciation of art. I'll pay for what I like, within my budgetary limits, and accept the fact that good art is expensive.
18: I am a wealthy connoisseur. Art's subtle pleasures is what I live for. I will buy only the best, but I will pay what is needed to acquire it.

In general, an artist has to figure out who they are good enough to sell to, and then price appropriately. Everyone above that point will turn up their nose at the quality (at any price, however low), and everyone below that point will belly ache and moan about how it's overpriced... because they don't see much difference in the aesthetic value between the lower-priced stuff and your stuff.

There are exceptions - I can't afford to sustain my art-consumption habits, so I won't buy it at that price... but I won't moan about overpriced art, because I can see that the art is priced properly.

And there are artists who misjudge the quality level they can achieve, and over- or under-price their work. There are also artists who want to hit a higher level than they're at, and do it for free in return for free editting and criticism (which usually also has a price)... but that's usually a time-limited deal, and once the artist hits the quality level they're comfortable with, don't expect more free stuff!

 

[seasong]

To apply the above to Dr. Midnight, I would place him at '14'. He does good enough work for professional illustration, which hits the $250-500 range for a single piece (a day's wage in the high end professional field, assuming $30-50 per hour). That he's selling it at an 11-12 is a testament to his love of roleplaying and us.

As far as materials cost go - that has absolutely no bearing on price, except to determine if it is possible to sell something. For example, it is impossible to sell wall-sized oil paintings for $10, so no one buys them at that rate. If Dr. Midnight's materials cost more than $250-500, he wouldn't up the price, he'd either find cheaper materials or starve.

To put that another way: materials don't determine price; price determines materials.

 

[Thresher]

Well, comming from someone who spent 3 years at university majoring in painting and drawing, after spending many thousands of dollars. I found myself pretty much hopelessly unemployed. (But I did have a lot of time to play games so it wasnt all bad)

Like most of lifes losers, I ended up in IT
Sure its souldestroying, mind numbingly boring, makes me hate all living things after dealing with computers, LAN's, WAN's, stuck in a room with lots of flashing lights and kept away from the normal people....
But I digress, it pays bills, keeps a car on the road and a roof over my head.
Something I just cant do with art.
I would like to do all that with art.
But I cant, so being something of a realist I do the art I want to do in my own time and no one pays me for it, why? Because its fun. People sort of ask from time to time "want to do some pieces for my fan-mag?" and I'll say "ok, how much is it worth to you?"
Usually your looking at well under 100 US bucks for a couple of simple black and white pics to bulk up the blank bits in between the writing and to be honest, its just not worth my time.

For 1 picture, a relatively high detail, photo-realistic one I have to-
Build it up a 3D model in Poser or 3DSM, figure about 5-70hours work there, depending on how complex the character is.
Texture mapping (shudder) will probably consume the better part of another 10hours on average just to scrounge up something and then go back in and do the transparencies, fit it all in, screw some of it up and then have to redo it. Add about another 5hours of going nuts getting it perfect.
Righto, so I have a character standing there with his arms out looking for all the world like he needs a cross, so we need somewhere to stick him...
Time to do up a background, sometimes its easy if I can use a few of them cheap background generators and hack something out in Photoshop over an hour or 10 there and maybe mutilate some landscape photos or something.
By this stage I hopefully have some idea for a composition...
Yes, composition.
With any luck I wont cop-out and do some cheesy fantasy scene of some semi-naked gimp/gimpette standing around in a desert sunset with a big sword, loincloth or chainmail bikini looking either hardcore/sexy/stupid or all 3.

(but most likely the latter because theyre stuck in a desert with nought but a big sword, mostly naked and no water bottle. But hey, they look hardc0re! )

So, assuming its a good day, you wont get "gimp in the desert lookin ruff n tuff" and I actually might make something with form and flow that could pass bearably as "art" and use it to terrorise lecturers at uni or make people actually notice it. Composition takes time, not to mention I'll probably have some other characters running around in there too, either doing what real adventurers do-
A) Beating the crap out of orcs
B) Passed out dead drunk under a tree
C) Just dead, under a nice tree, or maybe a nice runaway carthorse.
So, add a few more hours there, lets say I spend 12hours going nuts trying to work it all out too.

Now lets see, probably looking at about 60-150man hours work there, assuming I was getting paid the same as my day job (HAH! MORE PEANUTS PLEASE!) that could get quite expensive. Real expensive...
Well, maybe not expensive if your Bill Gates or regually throw away 1000's of dollars on a whim.

Assuming of course you reaaaaaly want something unusual and is going to be covering the costs of my program registrations, buying another uberghz PC just to run it all.
Who here has bought 3d modelling or art software lately?
/puts hand up
/crys
I still got one more kidney and 2 working lungs for the next version of Photoshop.
Yep, costs that and a bit more.

If someone is nice enough to spend 2hours knocking you up a nice picture of your character with pencils, inks, paint, pastels or whatever.
THEN
Have the nerve to charge $50!

They really are doing you a good deal in my opinion.

If it was me, I'd ask for your loveliest daughter as a downpayment, then you'd really have something to cry about...

 

[francisca]

It doesn't matter what price artists charge. People would complain. Your average Joe just doesn't understand that when you are buying a piece of art, it is not the same thing as buying a Big Mac down the street at McDonalds. They don't understand that when they spend say $50 or $100 for a custom illustration, that they are paying for more than just the paper, paint, and time it took to create the piece. And quite frankly, to try and explain to an average joe that theres more to a piece of art than the materials and time spent making it, in more than a few sentances, is more trouble than its worth. At least for me it is.

<snip>

So, Joe Sixpack, just doesn't "get it"? That's no better than Joe Sixpack saying that a career in art isn't a "real job".

To all of the artists out there: I admire you for persuing your dreams. Keep at it, it brings pleasure to many people, and I hope you are able to earn a decent living at it.

To those who think "art" (whatever you wish to define it as) is over-priced, get over it. If you find something is too expensive, pass on buying it. That makes a larger statement than insulting the artist.

No matter what vocation we all persue, there are others in the world, customers or people not associated with the trade, who simply do not see the value in our work. Drawmack illustrates this fact quite well. Everyone needs to get a little bit thicker skin while at the same time being a little more sensitive to others.

 

[Celebrim]

"That's more than I'm willing to pay."

and

"That's more than the art is worth."

If I don't want to spend $50 dollars on <something> either because I don't have $50 dollars to spare or because my particular taste in <something> differs from the article in question, then "That's more than I'm willing to pay." It doesn't matter what the something is - be it a book, a dinner in a resturant, or a new sweater.

If I don't want to spend $50 dollars on something because I can get something of the same or higher quality for $30 dollars, or more to the point if NOONE wants to spend $50 dollars on that something for similar reasons, then "That's more than the something is worth." is probably closer to the truth. Nothing exists in a vacuum in which it cannot be judged in comparison with something else. If I say, "That is more than the <something> is worth.", even though lots of people are willing to to pay for that something I'm making a somewhat conceited statement about my own tastes. The truth is "That's more than I'm willing to pay." But if you go into a warehouse or department store and say, "I'm willing to work here for $32 dollars an hour.", then it is perfectly understandable for the employer to say, "Sorry, but that's more than you are worth." How much less insulting is it then to say, "That is more than the job is worth." And when an artist tells me that it is insulting to ever say, "That is more than the art is worth." or "You can't ever put a price on art.", I'm inclined to think that thinking like that is the reason 'Average Joe' doesn't think that 'artist' is a real job. Perhaps if the artist did not find himself to be so distinct from 'Average Joe', 'Average Joe' might cut him some slack and accept that making art is just another honest trade for a working man.

 

[WayneLigon]

WayneLigon,

How do you feel about PDFs? To keep it on the topic of the thread, how do you feel about the artwork in PDFs? Worth it or no?

I've only bought a few PDF's, all of them from Malhavok. I certainly liked the art Monte includes in his stuff.

 

[MEG Hal]

I have a unique perspective on this I am an art director and before this I was in the field of animation, art director and sales. Art is hard to judge...why is Bugs Bunny drawn by him $250 but by him $1500? So the artist has a value as well, as the work. Being an AD I pay differently but the originals stay with the artist and he can keep them or sell them. But art can make a book, we have changed covers because the feel of a book has changed and I feel art (cover and internal) has great merit. Si I respect artists, this field is known to be a low paying field but it is amazing at some of the talent around in fantasy. You may be worth more then the market can handle and that is another issue entirely, keep focused and be happy with your work and someone will buy it, promise!

I have some cartoon art for sale as well, keep meaning to get it on e-bay.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

There's a difference between:

"That's more than I'm willing to pay."

and

"That's more than the art is worth."

One is perfectly understandable. One is insulting.

Maybe one is insulting, but maybe people desreve to be insulted like that then. Name any field in existence, and there will be practiitoners where you can honestly say there work is not worth that much money.

Th following is not directed at Lord Pendragon,(or anyone in particular in this thread) I'm just too lazy to make a separate post for my rant, of something that has always iritated me.

We should all shovel money at art reguardless of what we think of it because, oh wait I forgot it's art and the rest of us idiots don't understand anyhting. Sorry this is a pet peve of mine but way to many times if someone says it isn't worth X, there then insulted because there not spohisticated enough to understand the true meaning/artisitic merit etc. If an architect designs a building that falls down in 10 mph winds and the customer complains that the desgin wasn't worth 500,000$ we don't say well you don't understand the true meaning of buildings, we say yeah your right you got jipped sue the bastard. Sure Art being more a matter of subjective tastes(and yes I realize it isn't entirely subjective) is somewaht different, but people can very well make value judgements and say that work isn't worth X, I don't care how much the mateial cost, and I don't care how much effort you put into it.