D&D 5E Why are 5E Giants Huge size?

[S'mon]

That's just so you can laugh at all the dead PCs.

Game on Saturday, PCs (4 5th & 2 4th, 28 total levels) were hunting goblins in the woods - some failed Survival/tracking checks & a 6 on encounter check later, they were ambushed by 20 goblins & a goblin boss. No PC actually died, but the Wiz did go to 0 hp in the first volley, and it was an incredibly tough fight. Afterwards I checked XGTE encounter building rules and supposedly a moderate/reasonable challenge for a level 5 is 8 goblins, 4 for a 4th... 48 goblins. That would have been a certain TPK.

Edit: And I was going easy on them (and myself) by having the goblins bonus action hide before shooting, not after shooting. Mostly so I didn't have to go over each individual goblin token on Roll20. Also had some suboptimal tactics like a few who charged into melee with squishy-looking PCs.

 

[S'mon]

1. Not all nigh level monsters have legendary actions

These tend to be very weak for their CR (except my Rune Giants - I converted a reasonable-looking Legendary stat block to non-Legendary, but it made for massively OP damage output when it could all be done on their own turn).

 

[S'mon]

The big issue I was forgetting was the reduction in the # of attacks. That being said, my experience over the last 6 years with 5e tells me they are not the same. The multiple monsters are more difficult 9/10 times in the combats I have run.

Do you agree with me that two CR 9 does tend to be roughly equal to one CR 16, though?

Obviously if you just go by XPV without the multiplier, the group of lower CR monsters are more threatening. If you apply the DMG multipliers I think it does tend to roughly equate, except maybe when you get into double figures of monsters - at that point it's too dependent on single-stat variables like PC AC vs low monster attack bonuses, or for enemy casters whether the PCs have a Paladin.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

View attachment 136170

And that reminds me of the more important question—why do 5e cloud giants have fangs?

 

[S'mon]

And that reminds me of the more important question—why do 5e cloud giants have fangs?

I've seen the pre-D&D fairytale picture that inspired the image in the 1e MM. It had fangs.

 

[Upper_Krust]

The big issue I was forgetting was the reduction in the # of attacks. That being said, my experience over the last 6 years with 5e tells me they are not the same. The multiple monsters are more difficult 9/10 times in the combats I have run.

I think the higher the monster CR the greater the potential deviation from the DMG listed average stats for each CR. That's certainly one factor.

Also most DMs won't go all out at focus a Solo Monster's fire on a single PC.

Maybe because focus fire drops a solo so quick the fact multiple monster DPR drop is less of a factor than one would think? If you don't protect them, solos can easily drop in round 1 or shortly into round 2 depending on initiative.

Focus fire can be deadly, often PC groups don't always work as a team when facing multiple threats, whereas with a solo monster they 'can't not' work as a team.

Not all nigh level monsters have legendary actions

True but you could probably make a case that all CR13+ monsters should have them in some capacity.

Why monsters like the Planetar, Balor and Pit Fiend don't have them is a mystery.

LA help with action economy, but don't do anything for focus fire. If there is only one monster, when it acts doesn't do anything to divert fire to someone else

Legendary Actions (not counted as part of the monsters overall DPR as per page 274 of the DMG) do help redress some of the balance though.

I don't understand this, can you clarify? What does MM stats compared to DMG stats have to do with encounter difficulty?

If the DMG page 274 says a CR 16 monster should have this average AC, HP and Damage but the listed monster only has 70% the hp and 80% the damage output then its not really living up to its CR. The higher the monsters the more they deviate. Orcus is listed as CR 26 but is probably CR 20-21 for instance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Game on Saturday, PCs (4 5th & 2 4th, 28 total levels) were hunting goblins in the woods - some failed Survival/tracking checks & a 6 on encounter check later, they were ambushed by 20 goblins & a goblin boss. No PC actually died, but the Wiz did go to 0 hp in the first volley, and it was an incredibly tough fight. Afterwards I checked XGTE encounter building rules and supposedly a moderate/reasonable challenge for a level 5 is 8 goblins, 4 for a 4th... 48 goblins. That would have been a certain TPK.

Edit: And I was going easy on them (and myself) by having the goblins bonus action hide before shooting, not after shooting. Mostly so I didn't have to go over each individual goblin token on Roll20. Also had some suboptimal tactics like a few who charged into melee with squishy-looking PCs.

Getting soft in your old age. Bill was right about you.

 

[dave2008]

Do you agree with me that two CR 9 does tend to be roughly equal to one CR 16, though?

I agree they are roughly equal, but my experience says 9/10 the two CR 9s are a tougher fight than one CR 16.

 

[dave2008]

These tend to be very weak for their CR (except my Rune Giants - I converted a reasonable-looking Legendary stat block to non-Legendary, but it made for massively OP damage output when it could all be done on their own turn).

IDK, the pit fiend is pretty tough. I haven't really checked as a whole though.

 

[dave2008]

And that reminds me of the more important question—why do 5e cloud giants have fangs?

Because 1e Cloud Giants do?

and Cloud Giants have fangs too:

The only one that didn't is 3e I believe (I couldn't find cloud giants in 4e). So really, why doesn't the 3e cloud giant have fangs?