D&D 5E Why are 5E Giants Huge size?

[S'mon]

My point is that if you have to face 5 fire giants or more at Level 12 then its a TPK. In a fortress of 105 fire giants



I partially agree with you on this but I think you have it slightly back to front (at least based on my observations).

The CR system begins to break down at higher levels primarily because the monsters (especially those from the Monster Manual) do not match the statistics for monsters of their supposed Challenge Rating (as per Page 274 in the DMG).

Now yes more options, items and spells CAN result in overpowered Party's but if you don't get the monster basics right you just compound any potential problems.



Githyanki Knight ( CR 8 ): 91 hp and two attacks averaging 46 damage.

CR 8 (by the DMG): 176-190 hp and averaging 51-56 damage.

Fire Giant ( CR 9 ): 162 hp and two attacks averaging 56 damage.

CR 9 (by the DMG): 191-205 hp and averaging 57-62 damage.

So the Githyanki Knight has 49% of the suggested HP for CR 8 and 86% of the damage. Githyanki Knight at 67% overall effectiveness.
A Fire Giant has 88% of the suggested HP and deals 94% of the suggested damage. Fire Giant at 91% overall effectiveness.

Both have fractionally higher than average AC's so we can cut them a tiny bit of slack. But we can easily see which one is more formidable on a per CR basis.

I think the MM fire giant has better to-hit as well as better AC, compared to the DMG CR 9 baseline?

If anything I'd say the MM giants are among the few MM creatures that do feel worth their CR. Many monsters feel terribly underpowered.

 

[dave2008]

Would you say that Storm Giant Quintessent is the 5E version of 4E's Storm Titan?

It could fill that role. It definitely seems more "elemental" in nature and with legendary actions it is intended to be a boss-type monster. Interestingly though it has the same HP and less AC.

 

[dave2008]

If they equate to 30,000 XP then that's roughly the same as a CR 21 encounter.



Exactly, a hard encounter for Level 15 PCs. So if a Level 12 Group are in a Lair with 105 Fire Giants fighting those same 3 fire giants will be a deadly encounter. Fighting more than 3 at a time (which you would assume is very likely once the alarm is raised) is going to be a likely TPK.

FYI, many people find the encounter budgets to be terribly inaccurate above level 10 and have to use 2x - 3x Deadly encounters to challenge their party. Not TPK levels, just to challenge them really at all.

Personally, they work well for my current group (low magic & not very tactically minded), but they didn't work for my other group (more magic, maybe slightly more tactically minded).

 

[dave2008]

Thanks for the shout-out!

I really should get the giant paragons done, now that I think about it. I'll have to see if I can get my giant creativity going....

I hope you can!

 

[dave2008]

I'd be interested in reading some testimonies on that. I'll search for them after these posts.

I'm not so good at searching these forums or I would look for you. They are here though (maybe not specifically about giants, just monsters in general).

True, albeit that's usually best possible damage, not every round.

You only need to do it for about three rounds generally, and they can. I have heard of some groups doing even more damage.

I agree Level 20 PCs can beat Orcus.

My point (as with the Fire Giant Lair) is that logically Orcus won't be alone and if you are sensible about it he'll have 4-5 of his top demons in attendance. Meaning it would likely be Orcus + 2 Balors (or better) + 2 Molydeus (or better) in the final showdown...and you still have to get through a bunch of other encounters before you even get to the final showdown.

i Agree, but that is not how people generally do it IME. Heck, look at the official 5e demon adventure: Out of the Abyss. The end game is some 15th level PCs going solo on a demon lord (could be Orcus or Demogorgon or whomever you want). They give methods to reduce the demon lords strength, but from what I've heard on these forums, most need to make the demon lords stronger not weaker (even at only lvl 15).

 

[dave2008]

I think the MM fire giant has better to-hit as well as better AC, compared to the DMG CR 9 baseline?

Monsters do, but they typically then have lower HP and DPR than the guidelines to compensate (not sure about the fire giants).

 

[dave2008]

FYI, I just wanted to state that it is my personal preference that a group of lvl 15+/- pcs should not be able to wipe out a 105 member strong Fire Giant clan / stronghold.

 

[Mind of tempest]

FYI, I just wanted to state that it is my personal preference that a group of lvl 15+/- pcs should not be able to wipe out a 105 member strong Fire Giant clan / stronghold.

what if they have an undead army, the pc's that is?

 

[dave2008]

what if they have an undead army, the pc's that is?

IDK, my personal preference is for the PCs not to have an undead army too! I realize that is something some people like, but that has never been my groups thing.

 

[Flamestrike]

If they equate to 30,000 XP then that's roughly the same as a CR 21 encounter.

That's not in the rules anywhere.

Or if it is, please point out where.

CR only equates to the relative challenge of a monster, not to an encounter.

Exactly, a hard encounter for Level 15 PCs. So if a Level 12 Group are in a Lair with 105 Fire Giants fighting those same 3 fire giants will be a deadly encounter. Fighting more than 3 at a time (which you would assume is very likely once the alarm is raised) is going to be a likely TPK.

3 just scrapes in to Deadly, yeah (due to the XP multiplier of x2 which they only just hit).

It could very well be a TPK. Even a well rested party with unlucky initiative rolls, could face 6 x attacks doing 6d6+10 damage attacks, with a natural 20 leading to a 12d6 critical hit. If they gang up on a single PC, he likely dies, and they could feasibly kill 2 in a single round.

Depleted of resources, they could be in some real strife.