Why are D&D discussions so angry?

[big dummy]

Certainly have seen it here and don't think you are off base. But have seen it far, far worse and far more often on other D&D forums, where sometimes even the moderators join in. Excuse the language, but "thread crapping" I think it is called.


My own limited observation is the "angry response"/"take it or leave it" seems more prevalent in D&D forums than in forums directed to other RPGs I follow, such as The Fantasy Trip, Traveller, and Tunnels & Trolls, and wargame sites. Some are bascially un-moderated and we all get along! Do I think it has to do with something peculiar to D&D? I don't think so and I hope not, given the numbers of D&D players/forum members you are going to get more of those who are delibrately obtuse and unable to engage in reasoned argument. Get enough and they can form their own club that shuts down threads lickity split.

As a hobby, I find an attitude of "angry response (usually passive-aggressive)"/"take it or leave it" to be a bane on removing the negative stereo-types associated with D&D players as asocial geeks who need to get a life and also a handicap on getting new people into the hobby. A personal story, in the last year I've pointed some people to a D&D forum site (not this one) who were interested in pen&paper RPGs to get an idea about it. The response, pen&paper RPGs sounded interesting but they had no interest in playing the game because of the people. They are willing to try RPGs as long as it is not D&D based purley on poster attitudes towards others! Let me say it took some work to convince them that not all D&D palyers are like that.

P.S. I theoretically like the idea of careful posting and editing. Alas the reality is I often post from work, so it's a "quick" type up with my horrendous typing skills. Edit later? I wish I had time.

Agreed... I had the same exact problem, having brought many people into the pencil and paper wargames from World of Warcraft or from never having played any games at all. The only thing worse than having these folks see a typical D&D forum is when a pretty girl is exposed to really unsocialized people like at a hobby store. I had one friend almost quit playing in our campaign because of what happened when she went to the FLGS to buy some dice....

But the truth is from an objective point of view it does seem abnormal and frankly sterotypical. It's jarring to see such apparently intelligent people, often so literate in their posts, completly in a frenzy over some incomprehensible, trivial or blatantly illogical reason like say, the simle notion of discussion any kind of general change in the game, or the very existence of a 4th edition!!!

BD

 

[big dummy]

The whole baby analogy is also a good example of "debate within the debate". What does it bring to the original discussion, besides an example of what posters should not do? Nothing.

It's just another petty argument on a detail to know "who's right" and "who's to blame". That sucks.

Agreed!!!!!!!

BD

 

[Odhanan]

As a hobby, I find an attitude of "angry response (usually passive-aggressive)"/"take it or leave it" to be a bane on removing the negative stereo-types associated with D&D players as asocial geeks who need to get a life and also a handicap on getting new people into the hobby. A personal story, in the last year I've pointed some people to a D&D forum site (not this one) who were interested in pen&paper RPGs to get an idea about it. The response, pen&paper RPGs sounded interesting but they had no interest in playing the game because of the people. They are willing to try RPGs as long as it is not D&D based purley on poster attitudes towards others! Let me say it took some work to convince them that not all D&D palyers are like that.

Agreed, indeed. Many arguments on RPG boards look nerdish to newcomers to the hobby, and they usually turn these newcomers off. No question about it. Ergo, it's a bane for the hobby.

 

[Starman]

Agreed, indeed. Many arguments on RPG boards look nerdish to newcomers to the hobby, and they usually turn these newcomers off. No question about it. Ergo, it's a bane for the hobby.

Is it really any different from any other niche hobby, though? In my experience, it isn't.

 

[Odhanan]

Well you'd have to define "niche hobby". If you mean a hobby with a public that doesn't represent "mainstream society and opinions" whose average practioners are more than passionated about whatever the hobby is about, I guess so, yes, but that's not because other hobbies are similar that we should just take this attitude as being "normal" or "okay" now, don't you think?

 

[big dummy]

is just trying to save innocent babies, while tarring everyone else as ignorant luddites irrationally opposing your benevolence.

True, but the subject at hand makes all the difference. With all due respect, if you are completely opposed to even the possibility of progress on principle, then you are exactly what you described above, at best.

Sure positive change can happen. However, many people disagree as to what a positive change is. Some people want low magic some want more magic, others want more base classes, others want fewer. Some pople hate prestige classes, some people love them. Which change is "positive"? Who is the arbiter of such an evaluation?

With all due respect, you are completely missing my point. It doesn't matter what the specific remedy is because I'm not advocating a specific remedy. In this case I am ONLY talking about the possibility of reform, period.

Specific ideas for implementing reform OF COURSE have to be broached in a very diplomatic and theoretical manner and even then one has to expect disagreement and resistance, even outright rejection since only a small percentage of proposed innovations to a working system can be expected to actually succeed.

So for the record I agree with all the posts advocating good manners.

But the issue at hand is simply the discussion of reform, in the abstract. The baby analogy everyone had trouble with was about that specific issue. I gather definitive statements are not welcome here, but some thigns are definitive. D&D is a game. There I said it. D&D has had more than one version. I said that too. No if ands or butts. Sorry.

And more to the point, if there are already other games systems on the market that do many of these things

Again, totally irrelevent to the concept of reforming D&D. It will change. And it will change in the fairly near future, unless bird flu wipes us out or something. You can't escape it. So since we know it will change, it makes sense to discuss how we might best like it to change, even what aspects we feel are most important to keep as-is.

Chess is

a very poor analogy because nobody owns it, it hasn't changed substantially in centuries, is about 1000 times simpler than D&D, and works perfectly. Are you suggesting then that you believe D&D is in roughly the same design state as chess? That would explain a lot...

BD

 

[Piratecat]

Are you suggesting then that you believe D&D is in roughly the same design state as chess? That would explain a lot...

You were doing so well -- and then you slipped in the snide insult. This sort of jab is a major impediment to trying to have a discussion about an interesting topic; it distracts from the topic at hand, and instead focuses people on thinking that the person who said it is being inappropriately rude. Your point about chess would have had much more weight if you'd just left off the last sentence.

You want to discuss change in D&D? It's not too hard. Just don't insult people.

Ultimately, the only person we're each responsible for on these boards is ourselves. That's why self-moderation is so important.

To everyone: If you're a poster who finds that most threads you participate in break down into fights, it's quite possible that you're feeding that pattern. Breaking away from your pugnacious tendencies and being deliberately non-aggressive can really help in those cases. If you aren't trying to prove something, arguments usually don't occur.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Big Dummy, Debating the general issues of 'reform' is a moot point. The only constants in life are change and death {which itself is a form of change}

When you start a thread debating the merits of 'reform' you must speak in specifics. These specifics are the points where disagreements are made and opinions created.

Should we here at Enworld look at how the hobby may change? Sure. Visit the House Rules forum.. it happens all the time there

Should we assume that something I think will improve the game should be universally accepted and embraced? Of course not.

Are definitive statements wrong-fun and need to be avoided? No.
However, stating opinions as definitive fact does need to be avoided as this leads to arguments.
... and even then you have to take the context of the statement. Diaglo's oft quoted definitive opinion is that he will not 'swoop down' on those who politely disagree with it.
You get what you give.
Re-read this thread with an eye towards the tone of the posts.. and the places where posted have turned an opinion into fact or made an assumption that broad stroke generalizes. {eg "if you are completely opposed to even the possibility of progress on principle" .... an assumption that opposition to a thread or two translates to complete opposition despite a healthy and long running practice of discussing change in a number of forums here}

Pay special attention to your own posts. This thread has lasted long enough to have most of the constructive advice get offered twice over, and yet the discussion is still at the same place it was when you started it. Your last post still have a tone that promotes the perception of exactly what you initially complain about.
{recent throwing in of 'with all due respect' not withstanding. For those of us in the military..that phrase has its own special undertone }

 

[Piratecat]

{recent throwing in of 'with all due respect' not withstanding. For those of us in the military..that phrase has its own special undertone.}

Heh - I was thinking the same thing. When I get to the point where I'm saying "with all due respect," it usually means that none is due.

 

[Starman]

Well you'd have to define "niche hobby". If you mean a hobby with a public that doesn't represent "mainstream society and opinions" whose average practioners are more than passionated about whatever the hobby is about, I guess so, yes, but that's not because other hobbies are similar that we should just take this attitude as being "normal" or "okay" now, don't you think?

I didn't mean to imply that it was okay. I'm just saying that I think it is common to more than just RPGs and that it probably isn't going to change anytime soon.