Why are elves inferior spellcasters./why gnomes are better.

[Stalker0]

Does that 20 hp lost over the carreer of a 20th level character really make that much difference?

It hasn't in my experience.

Speaking as someone whose last character was brought to -9 and -8 several times in the last campaign....yes.

 

[Derren]

It takes several levels to get past the "orc with greataxe can kill me instantly" stage. In the meantime, a higher Dex adds a flat percentrage of not being hit by that one attack.

Magic missiles are a problem, I guess, but that's what shield is for.

But wizards with low con are not in the *instant greataxe death* stage, they are in the *instant arrow kill* stage or maybe even *instant dagger kill* stage.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But wizards with low con are not in the *instant greataxe death* stage, they are in the *instant arrow kill* stage or maybe even *instant dagger kill* stage.

Or instant house cat kill.

It's all fun and games until the familiars get involved.

 

[NilesB]

The dwarf part kind of confuses me flavorwise as I recall dawrves being magic-phobic, but the gnomes make sense.

It makes perfect sense. When the gods want cool magic gear beyond their skill to make, who do they go to?


The Dwarves.

Also I think you are underestimating the disadvantages of having a 20' foot move in a campaign that tracks speed and positioning in combat, or one where the PCs find themselves needing to chase or flee. In a thread asking what armors are actually used, some people were reporting dex 12 fighters preferring chain shirts to full plate.

 

[Moggthegob]

Or instant house cat kill.

It's all fun and games until the familiars get involved.

ROFL
A sorceror in a game i recently dmed insisted on having hsi rat charge in every now and then and i recall one occasion where the rat killed the BBEG,who happened to be a drow wizard, who had been reduced to 2 hitpoints the attack before.

 

[IamTheTest]

Does that 20 hp lost over the carreer of a 20th level character really make that much difference?

It hasn't in my experience.

Not to try to contradict your experiences but I think itd be more fair to look at this issue in terms of percentages. Assuming you roll perfectly, your wizard20 will have 80hp (4*20). The extra 20 hp is a pretty sizable addition if you ask me.

Perhaps my logic is faulty, its a bit in the wee hours for me.

 

[Gez]

My first D&D character was a gnome wizard. She had the most hp in the party. Con bonuses are good.

 

[Votan]

My first D&D character was a gnome wizard. She had the most hp in the party. Con bonuses are good.

Yeah, the worst comaprison is actually an elf to a dwarf or a gnome.

A 14 Con goes is adjusted to 12 (Elf) vs. 16 (Gnome).

Level 3 (Elf)= 4 + 2.5*2 + 3 = 12 hp
Level 3 (Gnome) = 4 + 2.5*2 + 9= 18 hp

That is a 50% increase under plausible assumptions. Add in +1 AC/+1 "to hit" due to size (gnome) and you nullify the combat bonuses of the Elf's +2 Dex.

At this point the 20 foot move had better be crippling or the use of a Longbow had better be an overwhelming advantage. If the spell Longstrider is around (1 hour/level) then there is no downside at all for the gnome other than a first level spell -- ditto a riding dog.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

That assumes some fore-knowledge on the part of the PCs to know that a fight is coming and to cast the spells. 1rnd/lvl and 1 min/lvl spells will almost never be cast before a fight unless you know the fight is coming.

Just "waste" a round casting some defensive spell. Your high dex will make it more likely that you go before the opposition, and your spot/listen bonus will increase the chance to act on the surprise round.

Now, where did I read about bonuses to those things?

In my experience, wizards (and sorcerers) survive by not advertising themselves as such initially.

"Look, that guy with the big axe is either a fighter or rogue. The guy with the mace in the big armour is a cleric, if you judge by the big holy symbol around his neck. That sneaky guy who just harvested your kidneys is probably a rogue. And that guy that doesn't wear armour at all is probably... just an innocent bistander who happens to be in this dungeon. Let's not assume he's a wizard."

Obvious wizards and sorcerers get geeked by rogues and monks with improved initiative before they even act.

Beyond the fact that it's not so easy to disguise the fact that you're a wizard, you can still get improved initiative (it's not just for rogues) and a high dex (which is good for wizards, anyway). Now the rogue will probably still have a better init, but not by that much.

Which again pre-supposes that the wizard knows to cast this ahead of time AND guesses which energy type to use (or spends 5 slots to cover them all).

Can't win all the time. You can get fire and lightning (resist/protection lasts long enough). That and their bonus to ref saves should about equal out the danger of less HP (or a dump stat that gets neglected a bit more in the case of point buy)

True. They are wasted on a fighter, they are also however wasted on a wizard. Low str and low BAB and low attack rate means that bows are no better for a wizard than crossbows.

Assuming you have str 10, at least the bows will still be useful, especially since you can shoot and move.

True too, but unless you have ranks in these skills, +2 becomes irrelevant really fast and their fav-class doesn't get those skills in-class. At least the familiar gives you an additional +2 however, but that only postpones the inevitable.

Against stealth specialists, but not against others.

I agree that the grey and gold elves are decent races, the PHB elves however are rather poor.

Nah

1. That is subject to disagreement but it only proves the point that the PHB elf race is too weak in general.

You can disagree, but it's still true.

And they're not more powerful than elves, they're more powerful than everyone else.

2. I agree, appraise is nothing to write home about. However I am interested in knowing which wizard divination spell is that which will allow you to appraise something like a gemstone or a piece of artwork. There are none in the PHB that I can think of.

Those are things wizards values? Mostly it's about magic items. They cast identify, know what the thing does, and then know what it's worth.

3. I think he is arguing that the dwarves' generic +2 vs. magic is better than the elves' immunity to sleep etc. and I think he is correct. It really just points out that dwarf racial benefits are in general better than elf benefits in nearly all cases. This is not just confined to wizards.

Of course they're better than elves. And gnomes. And humans. And half-elves. And half-orcs. And halflings. Because they're overpowered. That's not a problem with elves, but with dwarves.

Elves don't make bad wizards, they just aren't any better at wizarding than anyone else and this is their favored class.

So? They have to be the best? That's not what favoured class means. It's not "if you want to be a power gamer, use this class with this race". It's something the class likes to do. Something that they're good at (which elves are), or something that fits their history (which it does). It makes it easy for them to dip into the class and go most of the way in another class, or go most of the way in this class and dip into any other.

If you go wizard all the way, you don't have any benefit from the favoured class, anyway. Same as a dwarven fighter or gnome bard.

Personally, I think racial stats should be as follows:

Dwarf: -2 Dex, +2 Con (stubby fingers and short limbs result in lower-than-average manual dexterity).

Make it +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha. They don't suffer from the cha penalty, anyway, and the dex is not too bad for them either, what with the heavy armour you get most of the time (with the speed consistency) and bonus to all saves against magic (many of which are ref saves)

Elf: -2 str, +2 Dex, w/ fav class changed to Ranger.

Can see that. Maybe except the ranger, I still think they make decent wizards.

Personally, I could see -2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Cha (they're always called to be hauntily beautiful and all that, why not put the money where the mouth is?)

Half-Orc: +2 Str, -2 Wis (They are strong and headstrong and short on forethought).

I'd keep the -2 cha and int. It fits. Plus, Str needs more than one stat to equal out. (Just like con, IMO), and they're not hindered too much by those two.

But, anyway, I would drop the half-orcs, anyway.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Just "waste" a round casting some defensive spell. Your high dex will make it more likely that you go before the opposition, and your spot/listen bonus will increase the chance to act on the surprise round.

In the sense that any bonus at all does increase your chance, then yes. However it is still unlikely you will spot anything with any real skill at hiding unless you have actual ranks of spot to back it up. By 5th level, a halfling rogue can easily be at +15 to hide and +13 to move silently with no gear at all. With a bit of mundane gear he can be at +17/+15. With low-grade magic (+5 skill bonus) he can be at +20/+18. +2/+2 spot/listen leaves you little better than a shot in the dark unless you have ranks and or gear. That also assumes good lighting and good sightlines. Higher CR stealth creatures will blow away your +2. It simply is not that good past low levels.

"Look, that guy with the big axe is either a fighter or rogue. The guy with the mace in the big armour is a cleric, if you judge by the big holy symbol around his neck. That sneaky guy who just harvested your kidneys is probably a rogue. And that guy that doesn't wear armour at all is probably... just an innocent bistander who happens to be in this dungeon. Let's not assume he's a wizard."

Beyond the fact that it's not so easy to disguise the fact that you're a wizard, you can still get improved initiative (it's not just for rogues) and a high dex (which is good for wizards, anyway). Now the rogue will probably still have a better init, but not by that much.

1. How exactly do you tell if the guy standing there in normal clothing is a wizard wearing bracers or a rogue wearing bracers or a monk in bracers? Until he casts a spell or sneak attacks you they look the same. If the cleric wears heavy armor, carries an axe and doesn't openly display a holy symbol he looks just like a fighter until he casts a spell or something.

2. You can get improved initiative as a wizard but many do not. The feat is of limited use to anyone who does not need to use sneak attack. Initiative is cyclical. Going first really greatly matters a lot only to sneak-attack classes because of the flat-footed window. Most foes do not have that high a dex so loosing it doesn't amount to much except for the sneak attack issue.

Can't win all the time. You can get fire and lightning (resist/protection lasts long enough). That and their bonus to ref saves should about equal out the danger of less HP (or a dump stat that gets neglected a bit more in the case of point buy)

True, you can't win all the time with guessing a defense that is why HP is the most universal defense. When all else fails, you take the damage on your hp and hope. They only exception to this are auto-disable effects. Most of these however come with a save. These are almost always fort or will saves. The elf is at least immune to some will saves and resistant to others. Against fort saves (the most common type thanks to poisons) the elf is in trouble compared to everyone else.

You don't want to compare to the dwarf, how about the halfling or is that broken too?

Halfling wizars vs. elf wizard:

HP: Halfling wins. +1 hp/lvl over the elf. Nuff said.

Fort saves: +2 net over the elf. +1 racial, +1 from non-deficit con.

Reflex saves: +1 over the elf due to the racial bonus. Both have the same reflex bonus.

Will saves: Elf wins. Immunity to a few of these +2 resistance to others. Halfling gets +1 with +2 more to fear. The halfling beats the elf only when it comes to fear attacks and only by +1.

AC: Halfling wins: Same dex bonus, halfling adds +1 size.

Spellcasting: Same, no benefits help or hinder.

Movement: Halfling looses until magical flight is available.

Strength: Not normally of much issue for wizards but this is about even unless the wizard is meleeing. The halfling's net -2 to str is counterbalanced by the fact that small-sized gear weighs only 3/4 (or was it 2/3) of size M gear. When it comes to raw carrying capacity the halfling will have similar and sometimes greater spare capacity to carry unless he is carrying non-size dependent gear.

Misc: Secret door detection is a big benefit for the elf because it is an auto-roll woth a racial +2. The chance is still small but at least the elf gets an auto-roll. The elf's general spot and listen bonuses are also a bit better than the halflings. The halfling is however significantly stealthier in every way.

The halfling's bonus with slings and thrown weapon is actually better than the elf's free proficiencies as they improve hit capability, particularly with weapons that the halfling wizard is likely to use. When the spells run out the halfling wizard is +2 more likely to hit with his slings, spears or thrown daggers that the elf is with anything he cares to use.

Assuming you have str 10, at least the bows will still be useful, especially since you can shoot and move.

You can shoot and move with a crossbow too (or a sling too for that matter). You cannot however move and shoot and reload in the same round. That is the difference between a bow and crossbow. For most purposes, without a bonus strength, the crossbow is better than the bow until you have the ability to fire a second shot (BAB of +6 or greater or rapid shot).

Against stealth specialists, but not against others.

Who else would you be using it against? Things that don't hide well generally don't try to hide. Hunting cats hide and ambush because they are specialized at it. Wolf packs don't hide. Any hiding they do is incidental and they don't care if you spot them.

You can disagree, but it's still true.

And they're not more powerful than elves, they're more powerful than everyone else.

I can prove that logically untrue easily. Dwarves make weak sorcerers and bards. They are not more powerful at these classes than everything else. Their con bonus is a plus but their cha deficit is a big minus to the very thing that sorcerers need to do most - cast spells. They have fewer spells AND a weaker punch. For bards they are even worse becaust the Cha penalty also hits skills that the bard most. Their save bonuses are a plus but their their racial armor ability (their most powerful ability) is useless. Dwarves also make weak shugenja, hexblades and wilders.

Dwarves also make questionable monks. For monks, speed is one of their greatest assets and being a dwarf shoots you in the foot to the tune of 10'. Again your best ability (heavy armor movement rate) is useless here as monks in heavy armor loose almost all of their monk abilities just from wearing the armor. The con and saves are also bonuses for a dwarf monk but everything else is a wash at best.

What dwarves ARE better at than everyone else is being a heavy fighter-type in heavy armor because they are the only race that does not loose movement due to the armor AND can also mitigate the weight/encumberance issue of the heavy armor. Due to a poor ruling on WotC's part dwarves also make some of the best barbarians out there (I think this was a bad ruling and a poor reading of the rules) matched only by a warforged. This is a function of WotC's ruling not the dwarf racial trait.

Those are things wizards values? Mostly it's about magic items. They cast identify, know what the thing does, and then know what it's worth.

Wizards to not know what it is worth. That is a function of the appraise skill which wizards don't have.

Of course they're better than elves. And gnomes. And humans. And half-elves. And half-orcs. And halflings. Because they're overpowered. That's not a problem with elves, but with dwarves.

As I said above, the statement is logically incorrect and overbroad. They are not better than everyone else. They are simply better at certain classes than other races are at those classes. Halflings and gnomes are very powerful at at a number of classes (stealth classes and spellcasting classes). Elves, half-elves and half-orcs are generally rather weak. That I do agree with.

So? They have to be the best? That's not what favoured class means. It's not "if you want to be a power gamer, use this class with this race". It's something the class likes to do. Something that they're good at (which elves are), or something that fits their history (which it does). It makes it easy for them to dip into the class and go most of the way in another class, or go most of the way in this class and dip into any other.

Mixed agreement on this one. Favored class does not mean that they should be the best at it but it has come to be the class the race is very good at. Not necessarily the best of all possiblities, but at least very good. Elves are one of the few races whose abilities do not support their favored class much at all. I disagree with the original poster that elves are bad wizards, but they certainly aren't particularly good ones either. Their attribute bonus does not particularly support being wizards. Their racial skill bonuses don't support wizarding either and in fact aren't even in class for wizards, leaving them useless beyond low levels. (Shouldn't they get bonuses to Knowledges to reflect their long lives?) The other abilities are also simply unsupported by the wizard class.

Truthfully, elves are unique with this problem. Every other PHB race has abilities that support its favored class. Elves simply do not. This does not make them lousy wizards. Truthfully, none of the PHB races make great wizards although humans and gnomes both make more potent wizards. (Human bonus skills and feats can be directly used to take skills and feats that help your class. Gnomes gain bonus spell-likes freeing up slots that would normally be used for these spells, a +2 to Alchemy and +1 to illusions).

Tzarevitch

Tzarvitch