Why are reflex saves immune to anything that is detrimental to dexterity?

[dshai527]

I would say it is because Dex is more than just the ability to dodge or move quickly. It is a composite of several different aspects including but not limited to dodge, hand/eye coordination, precision, flexability, nimbleness, and others. Armor would affect those portions of the dex bonus that impede full armor class and some skills but not the aspects that handle attacking with a melee or ranged weapon or a reflex saving throw. In the case of the saving throw the negative to dex might be made up for by the cover provided by the armor and thus offset so they decided not to mention this to keep the game simple. Just my opinion though.

 

[drnuncheon]

By the way, how does a flying rogue EVADE a fireball centered around him. I can see a half damage for a succesful save as normal (curled into a tight ball a second before the blast for example), but how does he survive unscathed?

First - how is that different from a rogur on his feet?

Second, you obviously need to watch more action movies. You can avoid the damage of an explosion by leaping through the air.

J

 

[Norfleet]

By the way, how does a flying rogue EVADE a fireball centered around him. I can see a half damage for a succesful save as normal (curled into a tight ball a second before the blast for example), but how does he survive unscathed?

He hits the deck. Fireballs fortunately lack a concussive effect. making this somewhat easier. The really interesting thing is that he's allowed to simply remain standing, without having to expend a move to get up. Personally, I always ran the game so that anyone attempting such a save *DID*, in fact, hit the deck, and had to thus expend an action to get back up.

Nobody complained, but if they did, I'd throw a grenade at them and see how fast they hit the deck.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have no problem mechanic-wise (i.e. allows a soft character to survive, with an abilty long associated to his class...quick reflexes). My question was one of description. When the mage player asks mne how the hell he avoided an instantenous effect, I want to be able to explain it.

For the main topic, the answer is that saving throws are instinctual, not conscious. In general, you get a full fledged saving throw whether you are stunned, asleep, unconscious, or bleeding to death at -9 HPs. (We make exceptions for healing and teleporting unconscious friends for reasons of playability.)

As for your particular question iwatt, instantaneous is a mechanical description for game purposes, not a scientific description. Most actions take 'zero time' mechanicswise -- we resolve them instantly. But we know it takes more than 0.000 seconds to load a crossbow or drink a potion. We resolve certain effects as instantaneous for practical reasons -- in order to create an unambiguous order of effects to resolve one at a time; there are other equally or more logical or realistic alternatives that would be too arduous to use in play.

I picture Fireballs as swirling jets of fire that roughly fill the whole space in a short period of time, not as a homogenous sphere of fire that blinks on then off. Someone who makes their saving throw has presumably ducked, dodged, or twisted into a non-fire volume within the Fireball area of effect. Those with Evasion are particularly skilled at this maneuver. And, yes, heroes can even do this in their sleep.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Those with Evasion are particularly skilled at this maneuver. And, yes, heroes can even do this in their sleep.

Depends on how you read "room to move".

-Hyp.

 

[Majere]

Have to say I always thought you had to be concious to make reflex saves. Certainly is has always been played in our group that if you are ..:
held
unconscious
paralized

You get no save for reflex type effects. Basically is you DONT have control of your body then you cant coordinate your movement wether consioud or reflexive. Tht said stunned is a bit like dazed, I would allow save because your not actually held in place, you brain is just trying to make the world sit still.

The rule of thumb is, if you are helpless (ie could be coup de graced) you cant make a reflex save.

 

[jgsugden]

Evasion is an extraordinary ability. That means more than ordinary. More than normal. Something out of the ordinary. It doesn't rely upon magic, but it isn't something we can duplicate easily in the real world either.

How do you explain a rogue slipping past a fireball and taking no damage? The same way you explain a dragon flying, a bulette burrowing 10' in 6 seconds or a magmin's fiery aura: Fantasy physics.

D&D is a game. Game's need to be balanced. They balanced the evasion ability so that it was appropriately useful and easy to operate. This left certain holes in the logic that surrounds it. Chalk it up to fantasy physics and move on. If we all took the time we spend on meaningless issues like this and redirected it to improving the design of our next session, our games would be a lot better.

 

[Marimmar@Home]

Gygax was asked a similar thing about characters chained to a huge stone and still being able to avoid half of a fireball blast back in 1e. He couldn't provide a satisfying answer (at least not for me) mumbling something about heroics and style.

The point is, just don't think about it, it will only cause you a headache.

~Marimmar

 

[green slime]

A player IMC playing a rogue refused a Reflex save against Dragon breath while he was stunned... Man I was so convinced he was toast...Luckily I rolled poorly on the damage.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

In my games, saving throws (and abilities like Evasion) aren't necessarily just "I take it, I dodge it or I will it away" abilities. They represent those things as well as skill, the grace of the gods and, most importantly, sheer luck and circumstance.