Why are some NPCs so amazingly irritating? (e.g. Khelben Blackstaff)

[CruelSummerLord]

I agree with many of the statements here, so I'll make my contribution brief.

For me, the NPCs of Forgotten Realms are so basely irritating because, quite often, they're presented as perfect, flawless, and beloved.

Does Storm Silverhand ever burn out, lose her temper, become exasperated when people come asking her for help yet again?

No.

Do the Simbul or Alustriel ever act for reasons of base politics, putting their own personal interests or the needs of their countries first, even if it might mean abandoning other countries or peoples to their fate?

Not that I've ever seen.

Do the people of Shadowdale have any notable character flaws?

If they do, it's news to me.

Worse yet, and so teeth-clenchingly irritating, is when the NPCs show up for no good reason in a module. They add nothing to it, and are protected by ridiculous deus ex machina.

Take Jeff Grubb's ridiculous Curse of the Azure Bonds.. Alias, Akabar, Dragonbait and Olive all show up at various points in the journey, and really add nothing of value to the plot. They just show up because they're Grubb's pet characters. Akabar, especially, is prone to doing stupid things; if the PCs are approaching a problem with stealth and doubletalk, which is a perfectly reasonable approach, Akabar has a 50% chance of getting fed up and starting a fight, which will probably want players to give him a good solid beating for his stupidity.

What's most galling of all is that the characters are effectively immortal. An "Elminster's Blessing" spell restores them to full HP if their hit points are reduced to zero. This essentially means they can't die.

What the (CENSORED)?!?!?!?!?

There's one nasty magical trap that the DM is told Akabar will never be caught in, Olive automatically tags along whether or not the PCs invite her, Alias and Dragonbait show up for no good reason....

Gah.

Jeff Grubb's abysmal lack of talent is obvious once again in this module, with its pet NPCs stealing center stage, being immortal, and protected in ways the PCs aren't.

Small wonder FR's NPCs get so much hate.

 

[Korgoth]

For me, the NPCs of Forgotten Realms are so basely irritating because, quite often, they're presented as perfect, flawless, and beloved.

Right. It's as if it states in the Forgotten Realms creative bylaws that any players who have the audacity to actually play in Faerun are doomed to live in the shadow of the enormous phallus of the author's favorite Mary Sue or self-insertion character. As though the real PCs are actually the NPCs, and the PCs of a given campaign are merely the barely-tolerated "extras".

One of the virtues of the Baldur's Gate games was that they let you play one of the "movers and shakers". Though condescending cheaters like Drizzt and Elminister still showed up to show you how real heroes roll, just out of the goodness of their hearts. And you still spend your life putting up with crap from NPCs all the time. But it comes close to being interesting.

It's not that the PCs should always be the most powerful guys around. That's not it at all - every campaign is likely to have a few characters who are out of the PCs league, at least for most of the campaign. If you play in Hyboria, you should prepare yourself for the fact that you'll probably never be better than Conan. However, at least Conan seems like a human being: he has limitations, foibles and distractions. FR NPCs seem more like superheroes in the "Superman" and "Spiderman" sense: you pull some crap in Metropolis, you better expect a visit from Supes. He's invulnerable and unimpeachable so just deal with it. The city of Waterdeep has like, what, about a dozen guys of "living legend" proportion? More? No wonder you can't start a bar fight without being scolded by some demigod. Add in Script Immunity for the more insufferable ones and its no wonder FR has such a bad rep.

I can see a good parody of Faerunian gaming done in the vein of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, though.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Right. It's as if it states in the Forgotten Realms creative bylaws that any players who have the audacity to actually play in Faerun are doomed to live in the shadow of the enormous phallus of the author's favorite Mary Sue or self-insertion character. As though the real PCs are actually the NPCs, and the PCs of a given campaign are merely the barely-tolerated "extras".

It's not that the PCs should always be the most powerful guys around. That's not it at all - every campaign is likely to have a few characters who are out of the PCs league, at least for most of the campaign. If you play in Hyboria, you should prepare yourself for the fact that you'll probably never be better than Conan. However, at least Conan seems like a human being: he has limitations, foibles and distractions. FR NPCs seem more like superheroes in the "Superman" and "Spiderman" sense: you pull some crap in Metropolis, you better expect a visit from Supes. He's invulnerable and unimpeachable so just deal with it. The city of Waterdeep has like, what, about a dozen guys of "living legend" proportion? More? No wonder you can't start a bar fight without being scolded by some demigod. Add in Script Immunity for the more insufferable ones and its no wonder FR has such a bad rep.

I can see a good parody of Faerunian gaming done in the vein of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, though.

It almost seems to me, as a matter of fact, that there are a lot of good ideas in FR that haven't been properly built on even by their creators.

The Red Wizards of Thay are presented as your generic evil baddies who want to rule the world. But they actually have a fairly interesting backstory-their ethnic group (the Mulan) was kidnapped from another world and forced into slavery, suffering under the heel of their enemies for centuries until they mustered the might to throw off the chains of slavery. To do that, though, they ended up dealing with the forces of evil and darkness, selling their souls for their freedom.

Why not tell the story from the Thayans' point of view? WHo's to say that Rashemen and Aglarond could just as easily be the aggressor against the Thayans? The Witches of Rashemen and the supposedly "good" people of Aglarond, led by the Simbul, might in fact be violent and hateful towards the Thayans, who they view as agents of evil. The Thayans, for their part, were left with little alternative to turn to evil, which gives them a tragic turn.

But no, they're presented as generic evil wizards. And rather incompetent ones, too-just about every large-scale plan they come up with is defeated or ends up turning into a spectacular failure. When you consider their resources, and the fact that they still can't defeat Aglarond or Rashemen, there is only one explanation: The zulkirs are idiots.

How about the Harpers, the Church of Torm, or Cormyr? European colonialism messed up many other cultures around the world in many ways, leading to a loss of cultural distinction and identity, and alienation. The Europeans justified their actions by thinking they were "civilizing" the "ignorant" foreigners.

Who's to say that the Harpers or the church of Torm might be so hellbent on imposing their view of what is "right" on others, that they end up being blatantly insensitive to the cultural mores of other races, and end up blaming the very people they're trying to help when these folks tell the Harpers or the Tormites off?

But no, everyone loves the Harpers, who always know what is best and right.

Elminster is basically a plot device, but he could be a much less obtrusive one...

Sure, he's the most powerful wizard on the continent, but he's also a grumpy, crotchety, cantankerous old geezer who's damn sick and tired of being pestered by these young'uns who expect him to solve every petty problem that crops up!

He'll do the research, scribe the MacGuffin scroll, or do whatever other legwork is necessary to keep the plot moving, but he's not about to go running around Faerun like he did in the old days. He's too long in the tooth for that.

"There now, are you young whippersnappers happy? I worked for ten days straight researching to scribe that damn scroll for you. Don't go asking me to confront the demon myself-I did that a thousand times in the old days! You adventurers asked for my help, and I gave it. Now leave me alone!"

He gives the PCs the information or the tools they need, and then he leaves it up to them. Just because he has an extended lifespan doesn't mean he's as spry and healthy as he once was...

 

[Ranger REG]

For me, the NPCs of Forgotten Realms are so basely irritating because, quite often, they're presented as perfect, flawless, and beloved.

*long, wet, sloppy raspberry noise*

Bah! Any setting, be it FR or DL or even Middle-Earth are going to have characters that are apparently perfect, flawless, and beloved. You're just harboring resentment as you would with any Paladin character, both PC and NPC.

If you find it annoying, then ask your DM to stop making cameos of iconics in his FR campaign you're playing.

Again, what I said in an earlier post ... sadly pathetic.

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

Or not. I know my players have too much pride to be saved by a figure like Elminster. They'd rather have their PCs killed in a fatal no-win situation and write up new PCs than for me to intervene (other than divinely) by using iconics.

That and one of my players keep asking mewhen they'll get to meet Drizzt, as if he's itching for a fight.

IMNSHO, to use iconics to save the PC's shoulder-deep in trouble is pathetic. Let them die if it is so warranted by chance.

Well, yeah. I would not even use the NPCs unless they would be characters who are long dead and only live in legends. These characters are seen as kind of a joke by my group.

But one of my criticisms about FR has always been that it feels like a story that is unfolding whether your characters are there or not - your PCs are virtually irrelevant to the story in FR.

 

[Kyrail]

I personally as a player have no problems with characters with unattainable power. Just as I have no problem with gods that could never be beaten by a mortal (though in FR they are now that I think about it).

PCs reach level 31 (Eleminster) so why shouldn't at least one NPC be that level?
But the fact is these characters are not all powerful. They get 16 hours a day to do something and thats it, and I'm sure they spend a great deal of time enjoying the fact that they don't have to struggle all the time, and just relax. They can't go around saving the world left and right. If you piss them off they're blow your head up, but they are not dues ex machina for the entire realms.

They have human motivations, dreams and desires, they're not going to be spending all their time bailing the world out of danger. And if they are, then they aren't being in the players way. Works out.

For this reason they don't really bother me.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

*long, wet, sloppy raspberry noise*

Bah! Any setting, be it FR or DL or even Middle-Earth are going to have characters that are apparently perfect, flawless, and beloved. You're just harboring resentment as you would with any Paladin character, both PC and NPC.

If you find it annoying, then ask your DM to stop making cameos of iconics in his FR campaign you're playing.

Again, what I said in an earlier post ... sadly pathetic.

I don't understand where you get off making personal attacks when I just stated my opinion. I wouldn't exactly consider most of the Fellowship of the Ring to be perfect, nor many of the characters in DL.

FR's characters oftentimes don't seem to have any discernible flaws. Flint is short-tempered and grouchy, Pippin Took is impetuous and reckless, Gandalf and the dwarves leech off of Bilbo Baggins' hospitality, and Biblo himself is an unremitting complainer on the journey. And none of the characters are presentede as being almost flawless in every way-Gandalf refused to take the One Ring, knowing full well that he could be corrupted by it just as anyone else. Feanor was a hard-headed, arrogant bastard. If Frodo wasn't whining about his place in the world, he wasn't exactly bold and gung-ho about fulfilling his duty.

Storm Silverhand, however, is either saving the world (oftentimes being personally rescued by Mystra) for the 519th time, celebrated by the elves, or being an all-kind, all-cheerful, and all-powerful being who never seems to burn out, never seems to be wrong, and never seems to be unable to solve the problem. Characters who seem arrogant are usually portrayed positively by the author, or the reader is supposed to sympathize with them-if Storm or Elminster criticize someone, the implication is that they deserve it.

Drizzt and company, at least, have some problems of their own. Whether it's Bruenor's letting his emotions cloud his judgment and judging people without knowing them, Drizzt's overconfidence getting the better of him, or Cattie-brie's outspokenness making her seem irritating and rude (at least to me, on occasion), the characters at least have some flaws in them that make them at least a little more human.

As to my being "pathetic" and "harboring resentment", I fail to see how insults improve the quality of the discussion.

 

[jdrakeh]

I don't understand where you get off making personal attacks when I just stated my opinion.

Just report his post, man. It'll save you many words otherwise wasted.

 

[Ranger REG]

But one of my criticisms about FR has always been that it feels like a story that is unfolding whether your characters are there or not - your PCs are virtually irrelevant to the story in FR.

Meh. FR is supported by series of novels, part of which makes it so popular these days. So, there is always a story unfolding in that realm. Just don't feel left out because you're not part of those stories. Make your own.

 

[Mark Chance]

IMO, what it really boils down to, especially in the case of FR, is that the NPC's are SO POWERFUL, that there's no reason for PC's to do anything except go tell Daddy that the mean guys are trying to kill the good guys again.

* bing! bing! * We have a winner!

Ages ago, before I became thoroughly convinced that the RPGA and Forgotten Realms are both a horrible waste of time and money, I played a FR RPGA event at a con. We 2nd-4th levels PCs are hired to provide security for a fancy dress ball attended by Waterdeep's ruling elites. When trouble erupted, all those 10th-15th NPCs stood around and waited for us to handle things.

Utterly stupid.