Why are some NPCs so amazingly irritating? (e.g. Khelben Blackstaff)

Why is it that some NPCs in some RPGs manage to be so viscerally irritating? Is it bad writing? Good writing? Personality clash? Rules violations? It's certainly not just me, because I hear the same complaints about the same NPCs from a wide variety of DMs.

This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting for D&D, but I'm sure it's true of many other settings too.

I mean, it's been a while since I ran the Realms. I don't even really remember much about Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. I do remember one thing - I hate him and would enjoy seeing how far I could kick his skull. I know I've somehow managed to get my players to feel the same way, without them directly interacting with him, I remember the sneers when his name is mentioned.

What setting NPCs do you hate? Do you remember why? Do you use them anyway, or replace them, or what?

I know that 90% of the FR NPCs I hate blatantly violate the rules in some serious way, often in a way that players would kill to do. I think part of it is that they're clearly the "pets" of writers and GMs who have little concern for how pampering said pet will negatively impact the setting, so maybe that's it.

I wonder if someone has thought about this more than I, and come up with a more rational and/or detailed explanation?
 

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ShadowDenizen

Explorer
Not to start a flame war or anything... :heh:

But I personally find many of the FR characters to be amazingly annoying. For example, I'll agree with Blackstaff, and toss in Drizzt and ELminster. (Interstingly, the Realms has also produced one of my favorite characters, namely Cadderly from the Cleric Quintet.)

I think it's because, in my personal version of D+D, the focus should be on the PC's. They should be the impetus behind the major story-arcs, and stories should revolve arond them.
 

Peni Griffin

First Post
I can only speak for myself. The biggest Realms fan in our group has similar problems with the NPCs, though I won't go so far as to say that he will agree with everything that follows.

I have operated little in the Forgotten Realms, and it was over ten years ago, but the NPCs are indeed bywords for annoyingness. We played in Waterdeep, and the government of Waterdeep, to begin with, is whacked - the Masked Lord system is a paranoia-inducing one, perfect for secret cabals and corruption, yet the writers seem to think it's not subject to such flaws and could operate in a city cheek-by-jowl with an authority who's a paladin, and maintain authority over nobles and a rising bourgeousie, without generating significant conflict. Sorry, don't believe it. Also, sorry, neglecting a good source of adventuring for the intrigue-inclined. What terror of Undermountain can compare with the growing conviction that some of the Masked Lords have it in for you, and moreover pose a danger to your beloved city? A conviction you cannot prove...

A lot of the NPCs, when taken as written, don't act as real people would - their motives are obscure, contradictory, or laughably unrealistic, and the people explicitly commended by the authorial voice (whom few assume might be unreliable, but who I think is best read that way) are often acting either against their own best interest or in an inappropriate way for the setting.

Khelbhen specifically is annoying because he's simultaneously so powerful, so bossy, and so secretive. If he asks you to go somewhere and do something, you're not supposed to ask questions, and won't get good answers if you do, if he's played as written. You need dental implements to get information out of him - magical ones, at that.

Elminster's the one I really hate, though, because Greenwood uses him as a mouthpiece a lot, and, I'm sorry, Greenwood overwrites, with the result that Elminster is a blowhard of the first order. Read any speech of Elminster's at random. If this guy were sitting next to you on the bus, wouldn't you have to get off at the next stop to restrain yourself from slapping him as he droned on and on and on and on and on and on...His conveys useful information, sure, but sorting out the good information from the character bits is a full-time occupation. There's an art to doing infodump and characterization at the same time. Elminster is a good example of how not to do it.

Volo of the Volo's Guides has a similar problem. In fact, I have a hard time telling his voice from Elminster's. I won't go so far as to say that everybody in the Realms speaks with the same voice, but I will say that there's way too much overlap, and that attempts to create a distinctive voice often result in either an improbable and difficult-to-read accent, or an even more tedious variation of the baseline authorial voice. Greenwood does not do an adequate job of writing disparate individual voices, and authors who aren't Greenwood feel obliged to sound like him.

What everybody I've heard discuss the question agree, however, is that the major NPCs are just too powerful, and it's hard for the PCs to feel that there's any point in anything they do. If they fail, the gods can descend in their machine to fix it, and in fact, if they weren't going to give the PCs the information they needed to do a good job to begin with, they probably should have. Consequently, a DM has to either take great care, or go to great lengths, to create a challenge which doesn't seem trivial. Ours did it by picking on our characters as individuals. At one point, when my character was trying to become pregnant, I and my in-game husband cornered him and told him, in no uncertain terms, "No demon-babies!" 'Cause he would've done it, just to create a personal problem that we were the obvious people to deal with.

I think the strength of the Realms is its detail - all those maps, all those names, all the existing politics and trade routes and gossip and the sense that you can move in any direction inside an existing world. It has depth and breadth. But the characterization of the NPCs and the extravagance of some of that detail (just as in college towns you may need a degree to flip burgers, we joke that you need class levels to wait tables in Waterdeep) are a big weakness, and should be taken in hand by the DM early in the campaign process.

What happens to the Realms if you take the big guns out of it? What if you throw out the bits of character write-up that annoy you or make no sense? What if you take the bits that annoy you and say: "Okay, this NPC is annoying in this particular way, and instead of fawning all over him, the other NPCs treat him as a bore, or an obstacle, or an object or ridicule, or someone to fear rather than love, depending on the nature of that character flaw."?
 

Oryan77

Adventurer
Peni Griffin said:
as he droned on and on and on and on and on and on...His conveys useful information, sure, but sorting out the good information from the character bits is a full-time occupation. Elminster is a good example of how not to do it.
After reading this post it looks like you have a lot in common with Elminster, so I don't understand the hatred :p

My opinion is that anyone that actually has a problem with a famous NPC is jealous of the NPC more than anything. I can understand hatred if it's due to a DM running that NPC poorly & taking the spotlight away from the PCs...but then I wouldn't blame it on the character, I would blame the DM.

I've only played in a campaign where I met a famous NPC once, and it excited me. I had respect for that NPC. Then again, I'm never full of myself to the point where I expect to be the master of the universe, "What? How dare you have me cross paths with Drizzt! I'm supposed to be the coolest & most powerful dude to walk the lands in the game!"

I know in a lot of circles it's cool to hate what is popular....but what did those characters ever do to you? :p
 
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MoogleEmpMog

First Post
Personally, I like both Khelben (because the 'enigmatic powerful patron' type is one I always like as either a player or a GM, and because he was really cool in the intro to Eye of the Beholder 2) and Drizzt (because the Dark Elf trilogy were actually quite well done, and the rest of the trash written about the character hasn't completely tarnished my memory of him), though I'm not fond of Elminster.

In my opinion, most of the so-called 'pet' characters who violate the rules in a way 'the players would love to do' violate the rules... in exactly the way their creators WOULD allow players to do. I *know* this is the case with the Greyhawk uber-NPCs.

It's only a problem for GMs who wrinkle their noses at allowing their players to have their own unique and special snowflake characters.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
MoogleEmpMog said:
It's only a problem for GMs who wrinkle their noses at allowing their players to have their own unique and special snowflake characters.

Or GMs who use the rules as written ;)
 

Peni Griffin

First Post
What did those characters ever do to me? Lie to me, jerk me around, and bore me.

Y'know, Mr. 77, unfunny personal remarks don't get any funnier or less personal if you put a smiley after them. And attributing everybody's difference of opinion from yours to the same cause is bound to make you wrong in many cases.

I have no problem with anyone liking these characters or disagreeing with my assessments. It's all subjective, and the OP solicited the sort of input I gave. If it is useful to him, good. If it's not, I tried. If somebody else thinks it's cause to be unkind to a total stranger, shame on him.
 

The NPCs don't just break the rules (virtually always in a fashion that benefits them, rather than regular Joes or the villains), they break the rules of reality.

I still haven't come up with a good explanation for how Khelben knew a single drow was going to sneak into Waterdeep (yet couldn't figure out she wasn't evil) that doesn't involve using the Rhyme of the Chosen.

He must have maxed out Gather Information or something... apparently every master mage must have all the social skills maxed out.

Also, bad writing involving deities protecting their daughters and ex-boyfriends, etc. (I know the new Mystra doesn't have the same relation, but she's still pulling near-literal dei ex machinae to save them on a regular basis.
 
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noretoc

First Post
I really like Khelben. My only exposure to him is the Song and Silence series (With danilo) and I think Elaine Cunningham is a great writer. I never felt like Khelben was a bully. Only that he had lots of secret because of the harpers, and basically was stuck knowing more than anyone should. As for Elminster and the rest, yea... All of the seven sister are unbelievable, Shandril is crazy. I think the characters I actually like were all from the harper books. Very believable.
 

Korgoth

First Post
Interesting idea for a campaign: The PCs are a squad of Warforged (yes, that's right, Warforged) gated into Forgotten Realms by an unknown agency. They are programmed to wipe out all the "named" NPCs of Faerun. The whole group starts out relatively high level (10th?) but don't have any equipment. They must arm themselves and start to kick tokhes. If any die, replacements will be warped in at the beginning of the next session (or whenever). Bonus XP will be awarded every time someone delivers a laugh line while impersonating Arnie.

"Are you Marysue Connor?"
"Actually, I am Ladylord Maxifliffle Bumblebutt, elven minstrel / archmage / katana master / performance artist / druid and democratically-elected representative of the eco-township of..."
ZORCH
 

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