Why are there Classes?

[xechnao]

It's not a holy cow, it's a defining characteristic! That's like saying that vampires are holy cows in Vampire: The Masquerade/Requiem.

D&D, at it's most basic, is a fantasy RPG in which you pick a race and a class and you level up by killing things and taking their stuff.

I mean, hell, why does D&D still have dice when we can just generate arbitrary random numbers of any range, including difficult ones like 1-7 or 43-4927, instantly? Clearly, dice are a holy cow too.

I disagree. The mechanics are unified now. You just get a package of some powers. You can easily manage to have exactly the same effect with prerequisites. Better use the word "build" for them IMO and I expect to see that in the future if we are to see a game design of this kind.

 

[Asmor]

I disagree.

Fair enough

The mechanics are unified now. You just get a package of some powers. You can easily manage to have exactly the same effect with prerequisites. Better use the word "build" for them IMO and I expect to see that in the future if we are to see a game design of this kind.

I'm utterly confused what you're trying to disagree with, though, as that doesn't seem particularly relevant to anything I posted.

 

[xechnao]

I'm utterly confused what you're trying to disagree with, though, as that doesn't seem particularly relevant to anything I posted.

As you mentioned that "class" in 4e is not a holy cow. 4e in its design could more easily have been a totally differently labeled fantasy game than to tie with traditional D&D in respect to what classes have represented mechanically, so it has but to be a holy cow. Traditionally classes were a core design element developed in parallels and playtested to balance. 4e is developed on a unique mechanic (dice chances and tile distances) that allows and can offer various combinations of "builds" or "decks" to give an example of another game. Fact is that if they dropped the word "class" it could have been a marketing disaster, although it would have zero impact to the gameplay nonetheless.

 

[The Green Adam]

Holy cow, nothing more than that really.

Perhaps D&D from 5th ed and forward will only use the word "build" and power affinities. I agree that "class" is a strange word for what it is used in 4th ed since all are created equal and balanced.

Stats should also be dropped too in favor of edges: ie strong, tough etcetera that give the bonuses stats do.

Exactly what I was thinking. As opposed to all those who point out the sacred cow status of classes when, as noted, clearly many sacred cows were sacrified to bring up this version. It simply struck me as odd to design what feels like a 'build from parts' system and then almost arbitrarily fit those components under class titles. The classes of 4E do not feel like classes to me but rather like trying to shoehorn an open series of choices into a template they don't need.

AD

 

[The Green Adam]

It's not a holy cow, it's a defining characteristic! That's like saying that vampires are holy cows in Vampire: The Masquerade/Requiem.

D&D, at it's most basic, is a fantasy RPG in which you pick a race and a class and you level up by killing things and taking their stuff.

I mean, hell, why does D&D still have dice when we can just generate arbitrary random numbers of any range, including difficult ones like 1-7 or 43-4927, instantly? Clearly, dice are a holy cow too.

I would agree with the latter part of this statement. After all, there are 2 non-random methods for character attribute generation in the PH and only one for rolling dice. Compare that to earlier versions.

 

[malraux]

Exactly what I was thinking. As opposed to all those who point out the sacred cow status of classes when, as noted, clearly many sacred cows were sacrified to bring up this version. It simply struck me as odd to design what feels like a 'build from parts' system and then almost arbitrarily fit those components under class titles. The classes of 4E do not feel like classes to me but rather like trying to shoehorn an open series of choices into a template they don't need.

AD

The 3e classes feel a lot more like that to me. The combo of feats and pseudo-feats like evasion to each class really did feel like each item got a pre-determined point cost, and then each class was assembled via buying each item.

 

[Jawar]

C'est la vache divine.

Et on ne mange pas les vaches divines.
Enfin, pas toutes dans la même edition...

As a matter of fact, nothing against classes - adds to characterization and flavor.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

classes

I think classes in D&D serve two roles:

1) niche preservation

2) minmax prevention

I see 1) mentioned here a lot, but to me what is really accomplished by classes is 2). In every classless system I have played (Heroes, Gurps, etc)
It was especially easy for the most rules-capable player to create a PC that completely outshined the rest. D&D, by forcing people to take bundles of abilities rather than cherrypicking, mitigates this problem.

What I can't believe is that 4E got rid of SPELLs. PCs don't cast spells anymore, they use powers, exploits, and rituals. To me, that's just wierd.

I am still on the fence about 4E. I really want to play the game that everyone is playing, but I am starting to wish that that game was 3E -- 4E has changed too many things, and left out too many others. It's also way too gamist on the gamist-simulationist axis for my tastes, and not gritty enough on the gritty-cinematic axis.

Ken

 

[xechnao]

I think classes in D&D serve two roles:

1) niche preservation

2) minmax prevention

I see 1) mentioned here a lot, but to me what is really accomplished by classes is 2). In every classless system I have played (Heroes, Gurps, etc)
It was especially easy for the most rules-capable player to create a PC that completely outshined the rest. D&D, by forcing people to take bundles of abilities rather than cherrypicking, mitigates this problem.

What I can't believe is that 4E got rid of SPELLs. PCs don't cast spells anymore, they use powers, exploits, and rituals. To me, that's just wierd.

I am still on the fence about 4E. I really want to play the game that everyone is playing, but I am starting to wish that that game was 3E -- 4E has changed too many things, and left out too many others. It's also way too gamist on the gamist-simulationist axis for my tastes, and not gritty enough on the gritty-cinematic axis.

Ken

These systems failed then. I guess being generic rules-wise were mostly about combat and Min/Maxing is something referred to combat. 4e in its design essence is classless. But being based on tile distance schemes as well as dice rolling it is harder for it to fail the way you are mentioning.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Exactly what I was thinking. As opposed to all those who point out the sacred cow status of classes when, as noted, clearly many sacred cows were sacrified to bring up this version.

And many, many more still remain, as a previous poster already pointed out.

It simply struck me as odd to design what feels like a 'build from parts' system and then almost arbitrarily fit those components under class titles. The classes of 4E do not feel like classes to me but rather like trying to shoehorn an open series of choices into a template they don't need.

Haven't classes in every edition been built from parts? A 1e fighter for example is made out of: d10 hit dice, a to hit progression, saving throws, the ability to wear any armor, the ability to wield any weapon and so forth. There's nothing intrinsic about those parts that says they have to belong to one class. This is demonstrated by the cleric's ability to wear any armor and the assassin's ability to use any weapon which are combined with features the fighter does not possess.

However it's not true to say the collection of abilities are arbitrary, either in 1e or 4e. In every case there is an underlying concept.

4e is a more class-based system than 3e because multi-classing has been made much more limited. You can no longer build anything resembling a fighter 1/cleric 1/rogue 1/wizard 1/ranger 1 as you could in 3e. This is a good thing imo. If class abilities can be mixed and matched too freely then you no longer have a class system.