D&D 5E Why are we still stuck with divine casters knowing all spells?

[Li Shenron]

I'd never really investigated spontaneous divine casting, since that wasn't really the angle I was going for, but I could see how my idea could lead in that direction. A quick peek showed three different base classes as spontaneous divine casters, one a variant on the core cleric, and all three went with a known spell limit, although the third allowed you to basically change all your known spells once a day, so with that one they basically are a spontaneous divine caster with access to every divine spell.

Just to clarify, spontaneous casting is not at all the problem here (in 3e I've used the Spontaneous Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana and is was fine). The problem which I am concerned about is excessive spell knowledge, which becomes also potentially unlimited if you consider supplements.

Spontaneous casting makes the problem much much worse if you keep the same rules on knowing all spells on your list, but existing spontaneous cleric variants in previous editions AFAIK always changed the cleric's or druid's "know all spells" rule into a fixed-sized (and usually about as small as a Sorcerer's) selectable known spells list.

My opinion is that it would be best if also vancian divine spellcasters followed the same rule. It's just plain better because it's fair, it creates variety among clerics and druids (without even needing an additional domain spells system) just like the variety we like on wizards, and keeps everything under control against abuse.

 

[Dausuul]

For me, that's a step in the wrong direction - toward flavorlessness that's antithetical to D&D's identity. Looking back at the cleric/magic user divide in 1e, the cleric's list of spells is fairly biblical in inspiration. Flames striking from the heavens, plagues of insects, and several varieties of faith healing are all nestled in there and make the class quite distinct from the wacko whose knowledge of the magical laws of the universe allow him to manipulate magic to his desired effect. There's been too much drift over the years, including over 3e's life, between the two and I think D&D would be better served to keep the two types of magic separate, maybe even heightened their distinction a bit more.

I agree that it's good to have distinctions between different types of magic, but I'm not convinced that the ideal way to do this is to break them into Arcane and Divine. The result often seems rather arbitrary. Why do we need to have both clerics of death gods and wizards specializing in necromancy? I'd rather have a single Necromancer class, with its own spell list and magic system. Separate magic by theme and function, not by power source.

But this is a bit too far from D&D's traditions to put in core. Maybe it can go in the 5E Tome of Magic.

 

[Stormonu]

Just to clarify, spontaneous casting is not at all the problem here (in 3e I've used the Spontaneous Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana and is was fine). The problem which I am concerned about is excessive spell knowledge, which becomes also potentially unlimited if you consider supplements.

Spontaneous casting makes the problem much much worse if you keep the same rules on knowing all spells on your list, but existing spontaneous cleric variants in previous editions AFAIK always changed the cleric's or druid's "know all spells" rule into a fixed-sized (and usually about as small as a Sorcerer's) selectable known spells list.

My opinion is that it would be best if also vancian divine spellcasters followed the same rule. It's just plain better because it's fair, it creates variety among clerics and druids (without even needing an additional domain spells system) just like the variety we like on wizards, and keeps everything under control against abuse.

Well, spontaneous casting of cure spells does add to the problem of divine casters who know all spells. Prior to spontaneous cures, divine casters had to pad their lists with a couple of cure spells, because they couldn't swap spells out. With spontaneous cures, there's little reason to keep cures as your "default" spells, which combined with bonus spells per level can turn the divine caster into Batman with his utility belt.

(I know you were discussing spontaneous casters like the Favored Soul, but spontaneous cures helped to contribute to the problem of Codzilla, though I think the original intent was a good one - that of not having the cleric stuck as a healbot)

 

[Li Shenron]

Why do we need to have both clerics of death gods and wizards specializing in necromancy? I'd rather have a single Necromancer class, with its own spell list and magic system. Separate magic by theme and function, not by power source.

It's not a matter of "power source" but of being different archetypes IMO.

The Wizard-Necromancer covers the Dr.Frankenstein archetype who is obsessed with studying questionable magic, whether it is because of lust for knowledge, because wanting to use such magic for power (eg build an army) or for half-good reasons (bringing a beloved one back to life).

The Cleric-Necromancer covers another archetype, that of a voodoo-inspired shaman or an evil cultist who just knows how to raise undead as a tool for his business.

There is some obvious overlap, but my mental image about those two is very different. For instance IMO the archetypical Wiz-Nec is a society outcast who creates his own servants, while the archetypical Cle-Nec is a tribal or cult leader (think Mola-Ram from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Door).

Well, spontaneous casting of cure spells does add to the problem of divine casters who know all spells. Prior to spontaneous cures, divine casters had to pad their lists with a couple of cure spells, because they couldn't swap spells out. With spontaneous cures, there's little reason to keep cures as your "default" spells, which combined with bonus spells per level can turn the divine caster into Batman with his utility belt.

(I know you were discussing spontaneous casters like the Favored Soul, but spontaneous cures helped to contribute to the problem of Codzilla, though I think the original intent was a good one - that of not having the cleric stuck as a healbot)

Yes I meant spontaneously cast every spell.

The 3e spontaneous casting of cure spells only doesn't bother me, and neither does the druid's spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally.

In general, spontaneously casting one spell effect (it can be technically many spells, but the important thing is the overall effect such as healing wounds or summoning critters) doesn't bother me, because it just covers one capability of the character.

The problem would be very much critical when you can spontaneously cast enough spells so that you can cover every (or most) situations that comes up. 3e Sorcerers and UA spontaneous Clerics and Druids paid for that with harsh limits on the number of spells known.

Note that in 3e, there was a core rule allowing the caster to leave some slots open, and prepare some spells them in just a matter of minutes. This is definitely less powerful than spontaneous casting, basically you cannot do this in the middle of a combat, but it can still be a problem when the list of known spell is enormous. It's the kind of idea that seems good on paper, until the caster starts using it to cast spells such as Find Traps or Knock, and step on the Rogue's toes for instance. Those spells were mostly meant to provide an alternative for groups without a Rogue, but if all clerics know Find Traps then it creates a problem. The UA spontaneous Cleric is so much better, because learning that Find Traps spell is going to cost you one precious spell known, thus the Cleric in a party without a Rogue feels very rewarded by choosing to learn this spell because she's going to make it useful (and being spontaneous, she'll never waste the slot), while the other Cleric in the party with a Rogue won't learn the spell and won't ever be tempted at stepping on the Rogue's toes.

What I don't understand, is why the designers cannot see that making the number of cleric/spells spells known by level fixed (like the Wizard), this actually opens up the possibility of adding more and more cleric spells to the game without worrying, because it doesn't matter how long the cleric list becomes if each cleric still knows the same number of spells.

Then again, like the Wizard, for those players who feel restricted by the fixed number of spells, there can be the possibility of learning more clerics spells in the same way as Wizard, i.e. finding a source (scroll, prayerbook, teacher...) and paying a small fee. The DM can exert her control over the source availability, if she thinks it's going too far. The cost takes care of balancing an avid spell-learner against another caster who doesn't learn additional spells.

And balancing such a system should be very easy, considering that we already have it in the game for another class!

 

[Nymrohd]

While it may already be too late in the playtesting phase for this, I still don't get why divine magic needs to go all the way to 9. Limiting cleric spells (and thus the power of their effects) to level 7 as was back in AD&D would make more sense for the cleric who can also do reasonably well in melee and casts in heavy armor. 8th-9th level spells could perhaps be quest spells; artifact level treasures granted to a cleric by his deity.

Indeed the concept of spells as treasure really needs to be reinforced. The fact that WotC thinks they can balance the economy at a later point makes me sad Powerful weapons and armor should be balanced against powerful spells.