D&D 5E Why are we still stuck with divine casters knowing all spells?

[SkidAce]

I only let clerics choose freely from the core players handbook.

After that, it's lost secrets and varying traditions. You want to learn it...go visit the temple that has it and study their teachings.

 

[I'm A Banana]

"Spheres."

That is all.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

For this particular feature I think we have to thank the people who think that each class should work with a very different rule-set, to make each class unique.

You're welcome. ;-)

Cheers,

 

[Jester David]

Why do we still have this nonsense that divine casters automatically know ALL possible spells (but ironically, not cantrips, the smallest ones)?

There's a good reason for this. Which is pretty obvious if you try playing a campaign with a cleric with limited spellcasting (done it in 3e, with a spontaneous caster cleric).

The problem is everyone takes the useful offensive spells (like the wizard) occasionally getting some combat utility. They may grab the occasional heal or other handy power (restoration). But they're unlikely to grab remove poison, cure disease, cure blindness, death ward, and a wide assortment of very situational spells. You're going to go for the always-useful rather than the might-be useful.
Which means, save or suck become save or die. Suddenly the blind or petrified character is just gone, albeit still kinda around. Because no one can remove the blindness.

Clerics just knowing all their spells prevents this. Because those spells are always available.

So, the trick going forward, is remembering clerics get all their spells and making sure new spells really belong, or limiting them to domain options. Or making secondary spells require special knowledge to unlock.

 

[Li Shenron]

There's a good reason for this. Which is pretty obvious if you try playing a campaign with a cleric with limited spellcasting (done it in 3e, with a spontaneous caster cleric).

The problem is everyone takes the useful offensive spells (like the wizard) occasionally getting some combat utility. They may grab the occasional heal or other handy power (restoration). But they're unlikely to grab remove poison, cure disease, cure blindness, death ward, and a wide assortment of very situational spells. You're going to go for the always-useful rather than the might-be useful.
Which means, save or suck become save or die. Suddenly the blind or petrified character is just gone, albeit still kinda around. Because no one can remove the blindness.

Clerics just knowing all their spells prevents this. Because those spells are always available.

So, the trick going forward, is remembering clerics get all their spells and making sure new spells really belong, or limiting them to domain options. Or making secondary spells require special knowledge to unlock.

Yes it is a good reason, but it has bad consequences.

Now that you have all those things covered anyway, you're just going to ignore them, and in the meantime you can prepare lots of buffs and offensive spells. Should the fighter get petrified, he can wait until tomorrow for the cleric to restore him, in the meantime the cleric can be nearly as good as a wizard (or better, with the appropriate splatbooks).

At the very least, there should be a written rule saying you have to swap out some known spells if you want to add more from the splatbooks. But still so many spells are too much for beginners.

If the purpose is healing friends from special afflictions, then the problem is in those spells being individually too restrictive i.e. too infrequently useful... if they would incorporate e.g. remove disease with blindness/deafness and poison, that would be already a spell worth learning in place of something else. Or maybe have "remove curse" have a chance to dispel other things...

 

[I'm A Banana]

But they're unlikely to grab remove poison, cure disease, cure blindness, death ward, and a wide assortment of very situational spells.

PS:

"Rituals."

 

[Falling Icicle]

There's a good reason for this. Which is pretty obvious if you try playing a campaign with a cleric with limited spellcasting (done it in 3e, with a spontaneous caster cleric).

The problem is everyone takes the useful offensive spells (like the wizard) occasionally getting some combat utility. They may grab the occasional heal or other handy power (restoration). But they're unlikely to grab remove poison, cure disease, cure blindness, death ward, and a wide assortment of very situational spells. You're going to go for the always-useful rather than the might-be useful.
Which means, save or suck become save or die. Suddenly the blind or petrified character is just gone, albeit still kinda around. Because no one can remove the blindness.

Clerics just knowing all their spells prevents this. Because those spells are always available.

So, the trick going forward, is remembering clerics get all their spells and making sure new spells really belong, or limiting them to domain options. Or making secondary spells require special knowledge to unlock.

I think the best solution is to give all clerics access to a small list of "universal" spells that would include necessities like the spells you mentioned. The rest of their spell list should be limited by spheres or domains that vary from one god/ethos to another. I'd also like to see clerics get only certain spells known for free. The rest they should have to learn on their own. That way, they don't automatically multiply their capabilities each time a new book is introduced.

 

[Jester David]

PS:

"Rituals."

Which still require knowing the spell in 5e.

 

[Jester David]

Yes it is a good reason, but it has bad consequences.

Now that you have all those things covered anyway, you're just going to ignore them, and in the meantime you can prepare lots of buffs and offensive spells. Should the fighter get petrified, he can wait until tomorrow for the cleric to restore him, in the meantime the cleric can be nearly as good as a wizard (or better, with the appropriate splatbooks).

At the very least, there should be a written rule saying you have to swap out some known spells if you want to add more from the splatbooks. But still so many spells are too much for beginners.

If the purpose is healing friends from special afflictions, then the problem is in those spells being individually too restrictive i.e. too infrequently useful... if they would incorporate e.g. remove disease with blindness/deafness and poison, that would be already a spell worth learning in place of something else. Or maybe have "remove curse" have a chance to dispel other things...

New spells from splatbooks should be optional or require training / learning (special prayers) with the exception for needed holes.

The easy answer is still to be responsible when adding new spells and be restrained in adding new content. Which is a good idea for all classes. Bloat is never good.

And it's not that hard for new players. Picking that first day's spells is no less hard than the wizard's. Because there's a limited number of great non-situational low level spells it's easy. But unlike the wizard if the player picks a bad spell that will never get used they're not suck with it. They can change it the next morning.
Plus they're not creating characters in a vacuum. There should be experienced players to help and advise.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Which still require knowing the spell in 5e.

I think we can change that. Bring back ritual scroll use from 4e, or just rule that possessing the ritual is enough to perform it.

It's also worth noting that the standard recovery spells should probably be less "essential" in 5e than they were in 3e. If no one in the party knows Remove Curse, you shouldn't be 100% boned.