why are wizards so weak?
- Thread starter Particle_Man
- Start date
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
One of the key elements that makes wizards (and other casters) especially strong is that they have an ever-increasing array of options that they can bring to the adventuring party... not just in combat but overcoming all manner of other challenges too. They are typically streets ahead of the fighting classes when it comes to information gathering or travel.
Whether this is good or bad, you decide (some people don't like classes treading on other classes toes)!
Whether this is good or bad, you decide (some people don't like classes treading on other classes toes)!
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Felon said:
Felon,
Blanket generalisations like this (highlighted above) are offensive and against the ENworld rules. Please desist.
Regards
WizarDru
Adventurer
Plane Sailing said:
A few things to consider, though: most players never reached truly high levels in 1e. 12th level characters often were ready to retire.
For example: consider that in 1E, Meteor Swarm had a potential of 160 point of damage, with an average of 88 points. Fireball in 2E was limited to 10 dice with a max of 60 points and an average of only 35 points, while in 1E even a 20th level mage chucks an average
FB of only 70 points. Under 3E, Meteor Swarm has a potential damage of 8d6 bludgeoning+24d6 Fire against a single target, with a maximum of 192 points of damage, with an average of 112 points of damage...and 24d6 hits a 40' Radius Spread. YIKES. Fireball, meanwhile is still limited to 10 dice with a max of 60 points and an average of 35 points....but since it's only a 3rd level spell, it can be metamagiced out the wazoo, to compensate for those numbers. A 20th level caster can make a humble fireball into a trebly-empowered one, doing 10d+5d6+5d6 or an average of 70, maximum of 120 damage. Don't like the 'average' stuff? Then make it an empowered, maximized spell and then either heighten or widen it. Now you've got a spell that does 60+5d6 damage with a higher DC or double the explosive radius. Not to mention that if you want a fireball that can go to 20d6, you get Delayed Blast Fireball.
This all ignores the versatility of class benefits and items, such as metamagic feat rods. If the PC becomes an archmage, for example, he can make that fireball any kind of elemental energy he chooses on the fly. No melee character can match that versatility.
Let's remember, while we're talking about wizards, sorcerors are part of the discussion....because they can lob lots of fireballs, magic missles or other spells multiple times in a combat. While they often lack a wizard's versatility, they make up for it in being like an EVOCATION HAMMER. Wizards have to use the same spells, so they can't be overly-powerful...but they get lots of feats to pick up the slack.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Particle_Man said:
At the level that disintegrate is coming round, that spellcaster has defenses equal to his offenses, or he'd have died long ago. What sauce for the goose is good for the gander...those cheap items should also be in the wizard's possession, too. The wizards bonus feats help compensate for these issues, as I'd mentioned. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration give those levels a boost, as do increasing your relevant stats. If you want to build a pure evocation blaster, you can maximize your potential to punch through those defenses. If you have any doubt, just check my story hour for examples of same. The wizard PC in my group rarely fails to beat SR on all but the most powerful of creatures.
If your point is that on a point-for-point basis, the properly built melee character out-damages the properly built evoker, the answer is Yes, he does. That doesn't make him less effective, though, it just means his focus is different. My point in showing some of those spells was to point out that high-level wizards can do plenty of damage, if the choose, at ALL levels. Check out that damage Meteor Swarm does, in my previous post. Underpowered? I don't believe so. Creatures with high SR usually also have accompanying high AC, various spell-like ability defenses and considerable hit points. Across all levels, the wizard maintains. At low levels, he now contributes...and at high levels, he no longer dominates. Seem just right, to me.
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
About the low hit points and power at high levels.
Suppose you gave wizards a d12 hit die, but a -1 penalty to Constitution for every spell level they could cast (not counting cantrips). When they are casting 8th level spells they have a -4 penalty, so those d12 hit dice only average about 2.5 hit points (3 actually, since 1 is the minimum roll).
Another rule; this class penalty to Constitution overlaps (doesn't stack) with racial penalties. Which is why elves are suited for being wizards; they don't suffer the initial penalties.
A neat feature: if and when the wizard becomes undead (like a lich) he doesn't have to reroll his hit dice. He's been rolling d12s all along. (He would have to have kept track of the low rolls that were treated as 1s, though, so this might not be much of an advantage.)
Yeah, this is all house-ruley, but I don't mean it seriously enough to want to start a thread. And someone else suggested d6s at lower levels, and d4s later on; this is just that idea written large.
Wizardru- your sig is messed up. The words "my own" are stuck in Sepulchrave's name.
Suppose you gave wizards a d12 hit die, but a -1 penalty to Constitution for every spell level they could cast (not counting cantrips). When they are casting 8th level spells they have a -4 penalty, so those d12 hit dice only average about 2.5 hit points (3 actually, since 1 is the minimum roll).
Another rule; this class penalty to Constitution overlaps (doesn't stack) with racial penalties. Which is why elves are suited for being wizards; they don't suffer the initial penalties.
A neat feature: if and when the wizard becomes undead (like a lich) he doesn't have to reroll his hit dice. He's been rolling d12s all along. (He would have to have kept track of the low rolls that were treated as 1s, though, so this might not be much of an advantage.)
Yeah, this is all house-ruley, but I don't mean it seriously enough to want to start a thread. And someone else suggested d6s at lower levels, and d4s later on; this is just that idea written large.
Wizardru- your sig is messed up. The words "my own" are stuck in Sepulchrave's name.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Cheiromancer said:
That's an awful lot of extra bookkeeping, which is personally IMHO is the greatest demon of D&D at high levels.
See, I don't consider the wizard's low hit points a detriment at any level, really. He's not a melee fighter, and shouldn't attempt it. A wizard, in particular, has an excellent capacity to protect himself, if he so chooses. With Shield, mage armor, protectino from arrows, wind wall, expeditious retreat, mirror image and blur, for some examples, the mage can avoid getting hit in the first place. With things like Spell Immunity, various elemental protections, the dispels, the globes, contingency, spell turning and others, you cna protect yourself from various spell powers.
This is where a wizard truly excels. A sorceror is much less likely to take something like Alarm or Tongues or Magic Aura or Identify...but a wizard is glad to have them, since he can swap them in and out. A wizard's true power lay in preparation, while the sorceror's lies in improvisation.
Cheiromancer said:
Thanks. Didn't notice that. Must have happened when I was editing on the laptop. Stupid touch pad.
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