Why aren't RPGs poplular

[Hussar]

/snip

In some ways, the real question might be "how are RPGs this popular in the first place?" considering all the competing hobbies, time investments and coordination issues, cooperative nature, lack of monetary rewards (as opposed to a poker group/fantasy sports things), need for a dedicated referee player, etc. What an amazing idea to hang on in spite of everything.

See, now there's an interesting point. The examples of hobbies that you bring up have all come in since RPG's became popular. Texas Hold 'em Poker, Fantasy Sports leagues etc. are all pretty recent compared to D&D.

So, what competition did D&D have in the hobby market in the mid-70's, early '80's? I would argue that there was a whole lot less then than there is now.

 

[Ariosto]

In some ways, the real question might be "how are RPGs this popular in the first place?"

As I recall, Dungeons & Dragons exceeded even Gygax's expectations. The original target demographic of historical wargamers is probably a very small minority today.

Yes, I think the success the game form has enjoyed is pretty remarkable. To anticipate a rise to even greater heights of popularity at this point -- at least as a commercial concern -- seems to me far fetched. The iron was hot in the 1980s, and we've already got what came of that.

Separating the hobby from the industry, perhaps there can be some growth especially among more casual and infrequent players. As "an amusing and diverting pastime ... in no case something to be taken too seriously", the game has potential for players whether or not their wallets are worthwhile for Hasbro to target.

 

[AllisterH]

See, now there's an interesting point. The examples of hobbies that you bring up have all come in since RPG's became popular. Texas Hold 'em Poker, Fantasy Sports leagues etc. are all pretty recent compared to D&D.

So, what competition did D&D have in the hobby market in the mid-70's, early '80's? I would argue that there was a whole lot less then than there is now.

Looking back in the 70s and 80s, I'm actually blanking on anything other than war and boardgames and other model hobbies like trains and RCs. Wargames themselves tend to require as much buy-in (if not more) than RPGs while model trains and RCs would be more expensive than RPGs.

As a sidebar, Shelley's latest column was very timely.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

See, now there's an interesting point. The examples of hobbies that you bring up have all come in since RPG's became popular. Texas Hold 'em Poker, Fantasy Sports leagues etc. are all pretty recent compared to D&D.

Well, Texas Hold 'em Poker is just a very popular variant (one of hundreds if not thousands) of one of the world's most popular card games. IOW, it ties into something bigger than itself that is also popular. And there is the money thing.

Fantasy Sports leagues also do that- they tie into something much older and already popular. Most people who watch or participate in sports wonder what it would be like to participate in or coach at a pro level. Fantasy sports give you a taste of that, along with bragging rights and, of course, the potential to win money.

So, what competition did D&D have in the hobby market in the mid-70's, early '80's? I would argue that there was a whole lot less then than there is now.

Within the market? Almost none. D&D was, at one time, the RPG. All subsequent releases were, in some way, compared to it. Its not an accident that Traveller is commonly referred to as "The D&D of Sci-Fi RPGs."

D&D's competition- at least as far as recreational $$$ spending- was mainly the very same sources that inspired it: genre fiction in all of its forms, and wargames.

 

[Victim]

See, now there's an interesting point. The examples of hobbies that you bring up have all come in since RPG's became popular. Texas Hold 'em Poker, Fantasy Sports leagues etc. are all pretty recent compared to D&D.

So, what competition did D&D have in the hobby market in the mid-70's, early '80's? I would argue that there was a whole lot less then than there is now.

The popularity of Texas Hold'em is new, but I seem to recall poker nights involving my father well before the current craze. And I feel that comparison to Poker is especially apt since it too involves similar small group coordination issues.

 

[Ariosto]

Wargames themselves tend to require as much buy-in (if not more) than RPGs

Miniatures games, sure. Many board wargames had 4 pages of basic rules and were playable within 4 hours or less, and many more involved just a bit more. (Although I write in the past tense, there are still a few publishers and at least one concentrates overwhelmingly on what once was called the "micro game".)

GDW's Europa series (starting ca. 1984, IIRC) was probably the biggest of all "monster" games. Computer-moderated play-by-mail games (such as the classic Starweb, which I think Rick Loomis of Flying Buffalo offers to this day) could also get quite complex, but gave you more time to analyze data and formulate strategies ... sort of kind of World of Warcraft at snail-mail pace, if you can dig that.

D&D's competition- at least as far as recreational $$$ spending- was mainly the very same sources that inspired it: genre fiction in all of its forms, and wargames.

Yep, and all pretty geeky. When we speak of D&D having been popular, of course we mean chiefly among high-level alpha nerds.

Space: 1979 Adventure in a More Civilized Time

 

[Hussar]

Ariosto - sure, there were lots of 4 page wargames. There were loads of more complicated ones as well. I have a shelf of Yaquinto games (gack) that are just nasty when it comes to complexity. The bloody things take 4 hours to set up, never mind play.

But, I think the point I was trying to make is pretty strong. There just wasn't anywhere near the competition for time or money at the time. Particularly for the demographic that eventually became the backbone of RPG's - the teens and early 20's crowd. No Internet, no computer games (at least not for a few years) and certainly very little that you could do with four or five of your friends.

Heck, back in the day, we could get groups of eight or ten (I think my record was 13 for a while) together for a weekly game. Imagine a 16 year old trying to do that now, with all the competition for free time we have. It's not a big surprise to me that the presumed party size has shrunk considerably over the years.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep, and all pretty geeky. When we speak of D&D having been popular, of course we mean chiefly among high-level alpha nerds.

Hmmm...you're probably right about that, but as I've said elsewhere, I was an army brat. At least in my formative years, wargames were pretty popular in the armed forces. I still remember how there were all kinds of SFB, PanzerBlitz, Midway, Submarine and other wargames being played by the soldiers and other military brats around me.

Space: 1979 Adventure in a More Civilized Time

You know, I'm a big fan of Space:1889- I have 4 copies of the main rulebook, for example- but I'd love to see a similar treatment for an alt-hist game like that.

I mean...you could go all "Gil Gerrard" or BSG...or take it even further, decking out your fighters in "Starsky & Hutch" or "General Lee" car paint jobs.

Characters like Huggy Spacebear...or an interplanetary K.I.T.T. flying through the void with the Star-Hoff.


Waka chika wow!

 

[Ariosto]

Pigs ... in ... spaaace!
"Cheech, toss the doobie out the airlock!"

On into the '80s:

"Fleshy headed mutant. Are you friendly?"
"No way, eh? Ra-... radiation has made... me an enemy of civilization."
"Alpha Base. This is Bob McKenzie. I have a fleshy-headed mutant in sector 16B."
[shoots Doug]
"Ahhh! Take off, you hoser."

 

[diaglo]

investment of time.

when i was younger i could walk into toys r us and buy monopoly or any other board game right along side D&D. as well as cartridges for video games like the atari and intellivision (even a couple D&D ones).

playing the board games or video games required learning and setup too. once learned you were set for life.

but for D&D and other RPGs to work and progress since there is no winner it requires a time investment.

as an adult this investment competes with job, kids, mortgage, going to the store for milk, getting my tires changed, moving, etc...

i can still pick up the monopoly and play with little or no investment. spur of the moment deal. or the video game/ now computer game.

the rpg still requires me to have something prepared.