Why arn't Controllers Sexy

[mneme]

More or less -- it's worth keeping in mind that area damage (eg, crowd control) -is- a controller feature, both because it denies minions actions (by killing them) as well as because it forces opponents to use inferior tactics and not bunch up.

So whether a Genasi EE wizard is a controller who subs striker or a striker who subs controller is very much a question of what powers they choose. At 1st level it doesn't make much of a difference (as Flaming Sphere, that amazing controller daily, is also an even more amazing EE striker daily, and l1 encounters are way weak) but there's a lot of later freedom in the archetype even if your big advantage is "moar damage" (particularly since dailies don't benefit from enlarged spell -- so there's a good incentive to pick "the good controller power" of that level rather than grab the biggest elemental damage thing you can find).

In general, of course, Enlarged Winged Horde is better than Enlarged Scorching Burst because it'll typically do more damage (nuke the melee) as well as deny OAs (and in so doing, deny flanking and deny grabs).

 

[Aulirophile]

Any PC can shift one square. Many melee types can shift multiple squares. Some PCs can teleport. To me, stopping a few potential OAs when the PCs typically do not have to move through enemies sounds vastly overrated.

There are just too many other ways to get the same "not needed that often" result.

In fact, some PCs go out of their way (some Rogues for example) to force OAs so that someone like a Fighter can Combat Challenge.

I have a Ranger whose player sometimes complains when he doesn't get hit because he has so many good interrupts that occur when he gets hit.

Stopping a few potential OAs in an encounter? Vastly overrated.

It might be a function of your encounters design, but in the short time I've had it I've found a ton of uses for it. There's nothing like walking right by a bunch of monsters OA free and then closing the door they came through.

I'd say they are a Striker who subs controller, personally. EE severely limits your power selection, and the powers it limits it to are not controller-y. Sure, you can grab a Flaming Staff and then you aren't limited at all, but then you give up having something like Staff of Ruin, losing out on some striker damage anyway. Also the fact that Sorcs are AE strikers, and Gensai Wizards do more damage then Sorcs inclines me to classify them as Strikers.

 

[DracoSuave]

So the Master's Wand of Magic Missile + Petrified Orb combo should work, and be legal. But you'd have to be casting through the orb, as that's a specific stipulation of the superior implements.

This.


And also, Winged Horde is a good power, but Scorching Burst works with Hellfire Blood. And Hellfire Blood stacks with everything these days.

Everything.

Tieflings are all upside.

 

[KarinsDad]

It might be a function of your encounters design, but in the short time I've had it I've found a ton of uses for it. There's nothing like walking right by a bunch of monsters OA free and then closing the door they came through.

There are 101 Teleport powers in the game system that are not attacks.

There are quite a few Shift multiple squares powers that get the same result.

As does Stun and Daze and some other effects.

You are over exaggerating how helpful this is and how often this is helpful.


Granted, Fire Resistance is one of the most common in the game system as well.


Like everything, the utility of these powers is situationally dependent.

But, the most effective control in the entire game system is damage. If you kill a foe, he typically has a real difficult time coming back. Scorching Burst is effectively double damge over Winged Horde. That means from a strickly damage perspective, a player would need to target twice as many foes with the Enemy only Winged Horde to catch up to Scorching Burst.

 

[Aulirophile]

There are 101 Teleport powers in the game system that are not attacks.

There are quite a few Shift multiple squares powers that get the same result.

As does Stun and Daze and some other effects.

You are over exaggerating how helpful this is and how often this is helpful.


Granted, Fire Resistance is one of the most common in the game system as well.


Like everything, the utility of these powers is situationally dependent.

But, the most effective control in the entire game system is damage. If you kill a foe, he typically has a real difficult time coming back. Scorching Burst is effectively double damge over Winged Horde. That means from a strickly damage perspective, a player would need to target twice as many foes with the Enemy only Winged Horde to catch up to Scorching Burst.

Yeah, no. My Gensai Wizard static mods are over 50. -int brings that to the high 40s. Scorching Burst "double's Winged Horde's damage" is a gross and inaccurate exaggeration. In addition to that, I often do hit 2+ more targets with it then I could hit with Scorching Burst, because I can make it a an Area Burst 3 (7x7). Enemies only, so I don't have to worry about hitting allies, which means I can get more enemies in the burst very easily. Oh, and it gives the enemies I Hit -2 to their next attack roll. That is more of an insult to injury thing, though.

Stun and daze are nice and all, but barring some specific builds you cannot do them At-Will. This works At-Will. I'm quite sure I'm not exaggerating the effectiveness of that, because I've played it.

And Fire is the most common resist and outright Immune, especially at epic.

 

[mneme]

Scorching Burst is effectively double damge over Winged Horde.

This is highly build dependent.

An EE wizard who can drop an element onto WH will do 1d6+Implemient+Str+statics+ Critdmg with Winged Horde and 1d6+Implement+Str+Int+Statics+Critdmg with Scortching Burst.

For normal wizards, a lot depends on what Statics+Critdmg is compared with Stat and 1d6+Implement (which, yes, remain roughly comparable). Throw enough extra into the mix and WH doesn't have to target that many more enemies to do more damage.

Re how controlling winged horde is...denying opponents flanks can be a substantial debuf, all by itself. Even without enemies that gain effects on combat advantage.

 

[firesnakearies]

Yeah. What Aulirophile said.

 

[Aulirophile]

Also that. But I doubt the break point is that big. Let us assume you can always hit 1 more enemy with Winged Horde because it is enemies only (reasonable assumption and in fact I'm not giving myself as big an advantage as actual play has led me to believe I would have, assuming enemies are there to be hit, Winged Horde can and will hit more of them then Burst will without hitting your melee allies).

1d6 average is 3. At level 1, with no magic items, this gives up 7 damage for a normal Wizard with Burst, 3 for Winged Horde. Hit two enemies with burst, 3 with Winged Horde. 9 vs 21. Well and good! Scorching burst wins on damage (and damage only, Winged Horde is still superior control).

Now we just keep upping the static mods.

12 vs 23
15 vs 25
18 vs 27
21 vs 29
23 vs 31
26 vs 33
29 vs 35
32 vs 37
35 vs 39
38 vs 41
41 vs 43
44 vs 45
47 vs 47! Whee.

So +13 (without int) to tie under the best case scenario for Scorching Burst. Gensai Wizards will have that at late heroic/early Paragon. All of them should have it during epic. Various builds will get it sooner.

So sure, Scorching Burst does marginally better damage, some of the time, during heroic only.

EDIT: Oh, hitting more targets ups your crit chance. Not factored in, but it'd change things a bit (in Winged Horde's favor).

 

[Budalic]

There are 101 Teleport powers in the game system that are not attacks.

There are quite a few Shift multiple squares powers that get the same result.

As does Stun and Daze and some other effects.

You are over exaggerating how helpful this is and how often this is helpful.

But, the most effective control in the entire game system is damage. If you kill a foe, he typically has a real difficult time coming back. Scorching Burst is effectively double damge over Winged Horde. That means from a strickly damage perspective, a player would need to target twice as many foes with the Enemy only Winged Horde to catch up to Scorching Burst.

Five things:

First, no OAs means no flanking, and thats pretty good benefit. Lot of lurkers can be neutralized by this at-will. Also, a lot of skirmishers has some flanking abilities.

Second, winged horde is very likely to hit twice as many enemies (enemies only).

Third, you'll probably just hurt more allies with enlarged scorching burst. enlarged winged horde, on the other hand...

Fourth, WH attacks will, and thus is usually more accurate.

Fifth, when your elemental empowerment genas wizard has +10 static modifeir bonus to damage (i. e. paragon tier), the +5 from your int means a lot less.

EDIT: Fifth point ninja'ed by Aulirophile.

 

[Aulirophile]

This discussion is why controllers are underestimated, I think. Thinking the ability to deny OAs At-will isn't as good as 4-8 extra damage per target, when it is straight up better, in actual play. Do you have any idea how many Rogue Monsters there are that get some form of Sneak Attack? All gone, nope, those skirmishers are now minions in terms of damage, with not a whole lot more HP, because they cannot get CA.