• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Why bastard sword considered an exotic weapon?

I"ll go KISS principle here...

'Keep it Simple Stupid' - using the KISS principle, being the OP myself, I've decided to keep Katana as a bastard sword. Of my samurai with choice on combat style, the one specifically for 'nito ichi' one-handed katana wielding as well as two weapon style (katana and wakizashi) will gain 'exotic weapon proficiency' as a bonus 1st level feat in addition to those feats normally available in the combat style.

Other samurai specializing in 2-handed 'nito ni', and 'kyujutsu' archery has -2 to attacks unless taking 'exotic weapon proficiency' as a feat (not bonus.)

So, continue with the discussion to fulfill your needs, but my solution is locked in stone - this thread as served my needs.

Thank you.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Gameprinter
aye :) just make a "proper" katana a "masterwork" weapon as they were meticulously crafted, better ones taking a year or so to make especially due to the hand polishing and ceremonial nature of crafting.

Personally, I'd love to have a "wootz" steel katana variant made, shorter, broader blade, mmmm :)
 

There isn't any real harm in a samurai from the Complete Warrior wandering into a more Western-inspired game with his gigantic "katana," but there isn't any real value in it, either. I don't see any way it is going to damage the myth or legend to say, "A large samurai sword is called a tachi."
I understand that some experts believe the differentiation between a tachi and a katana was merely how the sword was worn? Or perhaps you could say the characters originate from a particular time period, when I understand the term katana referred to curved backswords in general before becoming a more specific term.

I guess ultimately my point is like western longswords and broadswords in D&D, there is not necessarily a single accepted term one should be using for a particular type of sword or weapon. So your original claim or wrongness, which implies there is a particular correct answer, seems invalid.
 

I understand that some experts believe the differentiation between a tachi and a katana was merely how the sword was worn?

Some. But that only means that according to some experts, some tachis do not have the characteristics of a D&D bastard sword. It certainly doesn't make katanas large.

Or perhaps you could say the characters originate from a particular time period, when I understand the term katana referred to curved backswords in general before becoming a more specific term.

Setting side that katana is a fairly late-era term, it does nothing to ease the incongruity of literally armies of NPCs unable to wield their own weapons without burning a feat on it.

I guess ultimately my point is like western longswords and broadswords in D&D, there is not necessarily a single accepted term one should be using for a particular type of sword or weapon. So your original claim or wrongness, which implies there is a particular correct answer, seems invalid.

That's the excluded middle. Just because we can't categorize weapons absolutely doesn't mean we can't categorize them at all. My claim is as valid as saying a gladius "should" be a shortsword or that a bo "should" be a quarterstaff.

Again, I'm not begin picky about terminology. I'm just pointing out that katanas (or samurai swords, or whatever you want to call them) are not four feet long and do not require extraordinary strength to use. They had an equivalent role in Japanese warfare as the sword had European warfare. Requiring a samurai to have EWP to use such a weapon is just nonsense. I don't know of any lore or myths about katanas that suggest they are unwieldly to use in one hand.

The reason katanas are treated as bastard swords, as far as I can see, is that they can be used one- or two-handed, and the authors of 3e did not think as far as realizing that longswords and scimitars can, as well. Lacking experience in actually holding a katana, as that would require difficult "research" at a shopping mall, they blithely gave it the stats of the bastard sword, not realizing they were giving it the statistics of a much different, rather heavier weapon.
 
Last edited:


pawsplay
comparitively long length of handle, curve of blade etc gives katana a very good slashing ability
the real major difference between the weapons as said is vs armour and with the katana, also fragility due to the long parallel width of blade which is folded or even multi-core metal

so if enemy has no or only leather armour, use katana, if enemy has armour, use bastardsword. :)
 

pawsplay
comparitively long length of handle, curve of blade etc gives katana a very good slashing ability
the real major difference between the weapons as said is vs armour and with the katana, also fragility due to the long parallel width of blade which is folded or even multi-core metal

so if enemy has no or only leather armour, use katana, if enemy has armour, use bastardsword. :)

The real question is, which is better against dragonscale? :)
 

Uh oh. You've got me out to hold forth.

As other folks have mentioned, a "bastard sword" is what was actually called a "longsword," and there's not much debate about this since period texts call it a "longsword" (langschwert). The D&D "long sword" is probably an arming sword, with extra flanges and crap in 3.5 or 4e art direction. Whatever.

From one point of view, a katana is probably closer to an arming sword/D&D long sword than a longsword/D&D bastard sword . . . but there's a wrinkle. What we call a standard katana was actually standardized during the Tokugawa military government. Before (and during the early part) if the Tokugawa regime, swords tended to be bigger -- closer to "bastard sword" size. Some folks call these "tachi" to differentiate them, but the primary difference is really dimensions and how they are worn (blade down for tachi, up for katana -- in fact, the categories bleed together to the point where you can turn a tachi into a katana and vice versa by changing the way you wear it!) and in any event, these big swords were *also* called "katana," which is a very general term.

There's a TVTropes article that complains that people think every Japanese sword is a katana. The trouble is, well, for a long time they pretty much were. There's a huge procession of very similar curved swords for which it is not wrong to use the general term "katana," though it might get odd at the very big (giant swords were probably mostly given as gifts) and small (dagger-sized, tanto, shoto, etc.) ends of the scale. People like to drag out examples of tsurugi (straight swords) but they are barely remembered as anything other than ritual objects.

(And those straight ninja swords probably never existed.)

Basically, this means that an Edo (Tokugawa government) period katana is like a D&D long sword, maybe with a feat that provides an extra bonus when the weapon is used two handed (as it usually was -- even dual-wielding patron saint Miyamoto Musashi usually kept both hands on *one* sword) while the weapons people like to call "tachi" could be treated as D&D bastard swords.

Lastly, you should remember the factor of size relative to the wielder. At 5'5" one poster is already a couple of inches taller than many period users. In a fantasy game where everybody's taller, their weapons are going to be built accordingly.

This raises the question: Is there any point to using a tachi one handed? Maybe if you're on a horse, or in another situation where you need your free hand to throw shuriken (taught in many schools to create space for a draw -- yep, more a samurai than ninja thing), grapple or do something else. Older schools (like the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu) conceivably taught the use of a larger sword in two-sword use back in the day, but this wasn't preferred unless maybe you had to cut down a lot of folks attacking from multiple angles (this is how Musashi apparently employed two swords against a bunch of swordsmen after killing their teenage leader in an ambu-er, "duel"). So taking it up a notch for D&D heroism it is not entirely out of the question, but for us mere mortals bereft of shields, we're probably okay with just the one large-ish sword.
 

Well then, obviously, I need to stick with the 'bastard sword ' version of the katana for my setting, as though it is not really Japan, rather completely fantastical place, it does have a link to actual Japan in its 'origin' mythos and a particular place in time, in Japanese history.

The approximate period my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting is placed sometime after the end of the Genpei War (1185) and the Muromachi Shogunate (1400), before the Sengoku period and the Tokugawa regime. Essentially the start of the feudal period of Japan.

The end of the last battle of the Genpei War, called Dan-no-ura at the Straits of Shimonoseki between Honshu and Kyushu, the imperial family cast themselves into the sea to avoid eradication by the Minomoto fleet. As the emperor's grandmother uttered a divine curse and threw self and her 5 year old child emperor grandson into the sea - the curse is actuated and the story of Kaidan begins in its aftermath...


GP
 

Uh oh. You've got me out to hold forth.

As other folks have mentioned, a "bastard sword" is what was actually called a "longsword," and there's not much debate about this since period texts call it a "longsword" (langschwert). The D&D "long sword" is probably an arming sword, with extra flanges and crap in 3.5 or 4e art direction. Whatever.

Although, of course, an arming sword could be a hand-a-half sword, to the point where it could be considered a bastard sword... (you present the parallel situation for Japan below)

From one point of view, a katana is probably closer to an arming sword/D&D long sword than a longsword/D&D bastard sword . . . but there's a wrinkle. What we call a standard katana was actually standardized during the Tokugawa military government. Before (and during the early part) if the Tokugawa regime, swords tended to be bigger -- closer to "bastard sword" size. Some folks call these "tachi" to differentiate them, but the primary difference is really dimensions and how they are worn (blade down for tachi, up for katana -- in fact, the categories bleed together to the point where you can turn a tachi into a katana and vice versa by changing the way you wear it!) and in any event, these big swords were *also* called "katana," which is a very general term.

Much as in most times and places, the general term for sword was appropriated for describing whatever passed for a common military weapon in those times and places. Thus you end with situations where the term "rapier," used for swords generally in some times and places, gets appropriated for a certain type of thinnish blade, and the other "rapiers" become "longswords" because they resemble the longish, hilted weapons of older fencing manuals...

There's a TVTropes article that complains that people think every Japanese sword is a katana. The trouble is, well, for a long time they pretty much were. There's a huge procession of very similar curved swords for which it is not wrong to use the general term "katana," though it might get odd at the very big (giant swords were probably mostly given as gifts) and small (dagger-sized, tanto, shoto, etc.) ends of the scale. People like to drag out examples of tsurugi (straight swords) but they are barely remembered as anything other than ritual objects.

(And those straight ninja swords probably never existed.)

In reviewing for this little discussion, I learned a number of new words for swords. I didn't even know there was an "okatana" or however you want to render that.

Basically, this means that an Edo (Tokugawa government) period katana is like a D&D long sword, maybe with a feat that provides an extra bonus when the weapon is used two handed (as it usually was -- even dual-wielding patron saint Miyamoto Musashi usually kept both hands on *one* sword) while the weapons people like to call "tachi" could be treated as D&D bastard swords.

Lastly, you should remember the factor of size relative to the wielder. At 5'5" one poster is already a couple of inches taller than many period users. In a fantasy game where everybody's taller, their weapons are going to be built accordingly.

This raises the question: Is there any point to using a tachi one handed? Maybe if you're on a horse, or in another situation where you need your free hand to throw shuriken (taught in many schools to create space for a draw -- yep, more a samurai than ninja thing), grapple or do something else. Older schools (like the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu) conceivably taught the use of a larger sword in two-sword use back in the day, but this wasn't preferred unless maybe you had to cut down a lot of folks attacking from multiple angles (this is how Musashi apparently employed two swords against a bunch of swordsmen after killing their teenage leader in an ambu-er, "duel"). So taking it up a notch for D&D heroism it is not entirely out of the question, but for us mere mortals bereft of shields, we're probably okay with just the one large-ish sword.

I think you jumped a notch there. Although the tachi was bigger, it doesn't follow that tachis, in general, were much bigger. I'll argue that during the tachi to katana transition, they tended toward similarity in size.

If someone wants to purposefully emulate antique Japanese blades in the game, it's worth noting that not only where they larger, they were distinctly curved rather than compromise-curved as most katana, tended to lack chisel-points for stabbing, and generally had simple welded hilts rather than the more elaborate and decorative hilts associated with katana.

As for what to do with a katana or tachi in one hand, although two hands is more powerful and faster, one-handed allows a greater range of motion. I've seen numerous katana kata that show one-handed moves, as one might use in close quarters. That's probably a distinction of little consequence in-game, but there you go.

Why would a samurai purposefully use a tachi one-handed? While mounted, of course, but let me add to that, in conjunction with other weapons such as a lance, javelins, shuriken and shaken, and axes, which might also be used from horseback. On foot, two-handed would generally be preferred, as with Western swords.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top