D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 monk?

[menacekop]

Are you genuinely misunderstanding me, or trying to pick a fight?

Look, I didn't say "LEVEL 12 IS AWESOME, YOU SHOULD TOTALLY TAKE IT". No, I said I'd never, ever, ever take levels 13 or beyond.

See the difference?

I hope this thread isn't too old for this post to be considered a necrobump.

I'm looking for some advice on where to take my monk I expressed some interest in rolling a monk (this is my first D&D char) and the DM talked him up pretty mighty and has been insisting that take him all the way to 20.

I'm beginning to find out that might not be a good idea, im currently level 12 and am wondering what class would be good to take next. I'm a little surprised that you don't find Diamond Soul (13th level monk) to be worth it, it sounded pretty nice to me, but I am still a newb, so I understand my level of knowledge may be a bit shallow on this.

The only other challenging obstacle I have here is that the DM is allowing 3.5 core books only (PHB, DMG, MM) so most of the special exotic stuff is off limits to me. I was able to convice him to let me take the Sun School tactical feat from CW tho, hes a little more familiar with some of the "complete" books so i may have some sway there.

My monk is currently heavy wisdom based for stunning fist and I was working toward Spring Attack feat...

 

[kitcik]

I play monks a lot. I like the pure class. Nonetheless, if you want a character that contributes anywhere near what other party members of equal level contribute, I agree with Nifft - NEVER EVER go beyond L12.

L12 gives you an up in UA damage, an increase in saves, a speed boost and a panic button (abundant step).

L13 loses a BAB point and gains NOTHING (no damage, no saves, no AC, no speed) except Diamond Soul. Totally not worth it.

There are lots of good classes to switch to, depending on your style. Dandu pointed to a good monk's guide in another recent thread on monks.

Good luck & enjoy!

 

[Nifft]

I'm beginning to find out that might not be a good idea, im currently level 12 and am wondering what class would be good to take next. I'm a little surprised that you don't find Diamond Soul (13th level monk) to be worth it, it sounded pretty nice to me, but I am still a newb, so I understand my level of knowledge may be a bit shallow on this.

Diamond Soul is neat if you constantly face low-level spellcasters. It's nearly useless if you usually face spellcasters higher level than you. Guess which kind D&D favors?

Your saves & other class abilities protect you against most equal-level or lower spellcasters, and once you risk seeing Otto's Irresistible Dance from a caster lower level than yourself, you should be getting a Mind Blank every day from your local Cleric / Sorcerer / Wizard.

The only other challenging obstacle I have here is that the DM is allowing 3.5 core books only (PHB, DMG, MM) so most of the special exotic stuff is off limits to me. I was able to convice him to let me take the Sun School tactical feat from CW tho, hes a little more familiar with some of the "complete" books so i may have some sway there.

My monk is currently heavy wisdom based for stunning fist and I was working toward Spring Attack feat...

If your Monk feels effective to you at level 12, then it's entirely possible you're playing in a group where the DM and other players don't really understand the power available to full spellcasters. That's actually a pretty sweet situation for a group to be in, until one person figures out the secret.

If you're in that kind of group, optimization is kinda irrelevant. Go ahead and take levels 13-20 of Monk, or take levels in Fighter, or take levels in Cleric or Druid.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Eman Resu]

Whenever Monk is brought up, the knee jerk response is a mid to higher level comparison. This comes from both sides, the anti Monk crowd says they have nice garnish but lack any high level meat, and the pro monks like to use a mid-level comparison. I would like to see them discussed from low to high level. starting from 1st and on up

1st level human Monk and your standard point buy. 20 point? (what is the standard point buy anyways?) At this level survivability is doubtfull with out at least a +6 mod total for wis and dex. Cant be a close up combatant with a 14 AC and live! Thats a 16 wis and a 16 dex. With a 14str and 14 con does this mean the Monk is suffering from MAD!

Ide like to see Monk on a level to level comparison starting from 1st, this way everybody can be on same page.

 

[menacekop]

I guess diamond soul just sounded more useful on paper, I do see what you are saying about higher levels. Our encounters seem to be leaning more and more toward save or die scenarios.

If your Monk feels effective to you at level 12, then it's entirely possible you're playing in a group where the DM and other players don't really understand the power available to full spellcasters. That's actually a pretty sweet situation for a group to be in, until one person figures out the secret.

If you're in that kind of group, optimization is kinda irrelevant. Go ahead and take levels 13-20 of Monk, or take levels in Fighter, or take levels in Cleric or Druid.

Cheers, -- N

My monk has been fun and felt effective up until about level 10, since then I have been noticing the other players characters getting exponential more powerful (and useful). Though its hard to judge because our last few sessions have been in a dungeon riddled with traps and undead encounters (making stunning fist useless). Then the final encounter in there was a red dragon which our cleric killed in the 2nd round with slay living... yay -_-

Anyway, I think ill start taking fighter at the next level for the extra feats, i want to remain as mobile as possible and still be able to stun/trip frequently, if only there were some way for me to get pounce...

 

[Eman Resu]

I guess diamond soul just sounded more useful on paper, I do see what you are saying about higher levels. Our encounters seem to be leaning more and more toward save or die scenarios.




My monk has been fun and felt effective up until about level 10, since then I have been noticing the other players characters getting exponential more powerful (and useful). Though its hard to judge because our last few sessions have been in a dungeon riddled with traps and undead encounters (making stunning fist useless). Then the final encounter in there was a red dragon which our cleric killed in the 2nd round with slay living... yay -_-

Anyway, I think ill start taking fighter at the next level for the extra feats, i want to remain as mobile as possible and still be able to stun/trip frequently, if only there were some way for me to get pounce...

would spike chain be of benefit? I had an excellent pc Monk w/ spike chain
(spike chain was counted as Monk weapon) imp disarm, imp trip, 2 hex radius of reach with combat ref, = attacks of Op all the time. I knocked em down and the rogues and fighters trailed mopping up the left overs.

As far as pounce, get bit by a Tiger/Lycan, poly into Large cat w/ pounce feat, is there one? Multi class w/ Druid and........eewww Druid with a Monk Dip me likey!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Monk is actually the weakest at level 1. Can't buy hardly anything, AC is terribad (even with 32 point buy, if you want a decent offense at all you're looking at AC 15, tops), has a whopping effective BAB of -2 when using his main class feature, for all of d6 damage and at best probably +2 str damage... Terrible. Best saves in the game (though in reality, not much better than a cleric or druid has) are neutralized by the fact that at level 1 you don't face as many spells, the aforementioned AC, and the mere d8 HD for a class expected to be in melee.

I suppose since monk is the weakest overall 3E core class this isn't very shocking, but I'd say monk is hands down the worst class at level 1.

RE: Diamond Soul
In core it had a decent chance of protecting you, there weren't many ways to boost CL yet. My main issue with it was always the drawback. It also protects you against friendly spells, especially bad if say...you need to be healed.

 

[menacekop]

would spike chain be of benefit? I had an excellent pc Monk w/ spike chain
(spike chain was counted as Monk weapon) imp disarm, imp trip, 2 hex radius of reach with combat ref, = attacks of Op all the time. I knocked em down and the rogues and fighters trailed mopping up the left overs.

As far as pounce, get bit by a Tiger/Lycan, poly into Large cat w/ pounce feat, is there one? Multi class w/ Druid and........eewww Druid with a Monk Dip me likey!

I was actually just looking at the spiked chain, though it does not list it in the PHB as being a monk weapon, it should not matter with me taking fighter levels.

EDIT:
Im not seeing how spiked chain is considered a monk weapon? you said you had an excellent pc monk, is 'pc' a book that allows it? (i thought you meant "player character")

 

[kitcik]

Pounce

If you have access to ToB, you can take Swordsage or Warblade and get Pouncing Charge. It is definitely cool for monks - I think the whole Tiger Claw discipline is perfect for monks.

 

[menacekop]

RE: Diamond Soul
In core it had a decent chance of protecting you, there weren't many ways to boost CL yet. My main issue with it was always the drawback. It also protects you against friendly spells, especially bad if say...you need to be healed.

I hadn't thought, didn't realize that it would protect against friendly spells. I'm def. not taking any more levels in monk.

Pounce
If you have access to ToB, you can take Swordsage or Warblade and get Pouncing Charge. It is definitely cool for monks - I think the whole Tiger Claw discipline is perfect for monks.

unfortunately our DM is only allowing core books, so no pounce for me =(