Why can't WotC break the mass market barrier?

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
What stores? Everyone but the OP seems able to find D&D in book and toy shops. Do you want them by the cash register at 7-Eleven as well? Given away in Happy Meals from McDonalds?

Please, a little section in Borders or Barnes and Noble equates to mainstream??? Then I guess that copy of Star Magic for Single Mothers, and all the other stuff in the New Age section is mainstream too?

D&D should be in places like Target, and Walmart, and Toys R Us (if it exists anymore...) just like other games are, and not just an area of the book store where you only go if you know about the hobby. Actually on the shelves and not just on their web store.

You find board games and card games and loads of other things distributed by Hasbro in these stores. Why not D&D? Why not at least the intro boxed thingy they have?
 

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If you want D&D to reach a wide audience, and more importantly, the target audience that WotC seems to want (young-ish folks with disposeable income and time), you need to offer them something that they already want.

That's why we don't need a "basic" game. We don't need an "introductory" box set. We need a D&D Party Game. We need a game that people can play for an hour or two instead of games like Apples to Apples or Taboo. Adult party games do sell pretty well, and enjoy an audience which likes little games which they can gobble up while they're having cake and coffee at the end of a get-together. A game that Starbucks or similar cafes can stack in their stores for people to pick up while they're having a coffee. And it's easy enough for kids to play too.

First, cut out the DM. While I think the game is best served with one right now, it doesn't jive with the party game mentality of "open the box, read a single-sided page of rules, and get rolling". Replace the job with a deck of "dungeon cards" which let you randomly create a dungeon with hallways, different doors, and different challenges as you explore it. In terms of size, I think over-sized flash-cards would work the best to allow for good artwork and enough room for all the stats. Put a "blank" dungeon feature (room, hallway, etc.) on one side, and then when you flip it over, you could reveal a challenge (like a trap or a monster) or treasure. For the monsters or traps, put a short flavor-text blurb for what's coming at them. "A pack of slavering, porcine monsters with tusks narrow their beady, glowing red eyes at you. One of them lets loose a warcry and hefts its axe, and the others join the charge." Include a piece of Monster Manual-esque art and bare-bones stats for people to kill them and take their stuff. Resolve the fights by rolling a pool of d20s like Risk, and track "health" by taking away d20s as people get injured (and let people heal by recovering d20s).

Other rooms should include traps which are resolved like single-round battles. Players roll everything. Some rooms should include positive things too (think about the variety of things on the map of games like Heroes of Might and Magic). Springs of magic water that heal you, a wise sage who lets you see into the rooms around you, etc. Make sure all the rules fit easily on the back of a dungeon card.

Stick a few plastic miniatures in the box, and make sure all of their stats are simple enough to fit on a single card and that you can figure it out pretty easily. Put an evocative picture of iconic PCs on one side of the card, and stats on the other, so players can decide at a glance which character they want. Make them all cool, and sum up their abilities in a way that quickly and easily lets players know what they're in for. Keep the players on their toes by including a dragon miniature as a wandering monster who is trying to hunt the heroes down, and who promises to make quick work of them! The dragon snakes around the dungeon, sniffing out the heroes, always drawing closer, and the heroes need to figure out how to evade the dragon as best they can by finding a way through passages that the dragon can't fit through.

In the rest of the box, put in all the dice players will need. Ideally, simplify things so they only need d20s. Put in a one-page rule-sheet about selecting characters, exploring the dungeon, and how to win (include one or two scenarios, like finding a specific piece of treasure, slaying the dragon, or escaping from the dungeon). Emphasize that the players are a team, but to appeal to the party-game mentality of someone winning and someone losing, include simple rules that say "If you wish, two different teams may explore the same dungeon at the same time, but only one can win!"

Also include in that box an advertisement which tells players that there are other Adventure Packs available, which include Whiteplume Mountain, Sinister Secret of the Salt Marsh, so on and so forth. And on the reverse side, include an advertisement for the core rulebooks, telling people that the next step is to be the ones to create their own adventure. They get to create the heroes! The Dungeon Master leads them through an adventure which he designed himself! They can create any adventure they want with the core rules, and the only limit is their imagination! Include a link to the Wizards of the Coast D&D site and maybe partner with Borders to include a coupon for 10% off your very own Player's Handbook.

Draw them in with a party game that they can play for two hours over coffee and cake at the end of a party, one which stores can stock right next to the other party games in the board games section. One that has the D&D name. One that you can advertise as a party-game played by fun, smart, attractive adults all sitting around a table, laughing, and cheering. One that provides a gateway to the hobby of roleplaying, and breaks the notion that D&D is for fat, sweaty nerds who dress up like wizards and elves.
 

Jackelope King said:
That's why we don't need a "basic" game. We don't need an "introductory" box set. We need a D&D Party Game. We need a game that people can play for an hour or two instead of games like Apples to Apples or Taboo.

{snip}

In a lot of ways, what you describe could be HeroQuest. Or Munchkin. ;)
 

heroscape

Scribble said:
Please, a little section in Borders or Barnes and Noble equates to mainstream??? Then I guess that copy of Star Magic for Single Mothers, and all the other stuff in the New Age section is mainstream too?

D&D should be in places like Target, and Walmart, and Toys R Us (if it exists anymore...) just like other games are, and not just an area of the book store where you only go if you know about the hobby. Actually on the shelves and not just on their web store.

You find board games and card games and loads of other things distributed by Hasbro in these stores. Why not D&D? Why not at least the intro boxed thingy they have?


Agree. They should have a basic box, with basic expansions in every store that carries heroscape. Heck, they should find a way to cross-market the two.

RK
 

Scribble said:
Please, a little section in Borders or Barnes and Noble equates to mainstream??? Then I guess that copy of Star Magic for Single Mothers, and all the other stuff in the New Age section is mainstream too?

Welcome to what the hobby industry is like these days, Scribble. That's what model railroading is like, or model rocketry, or stamp collecting, etc., etc.

At a "mainstream" store, you can find the stuff that can get you started in the hobby, but that's about it. If you're interested in getting into model rocketry, you can get a "starter set" at Target or TRU, and probably a couple of different motor types. If you're interested in stamp collecting, you can probably find some general books on the subject, and maybe a starter kit, at Barnes & Noble. If you decide you want to get into any hobby more deeply, you need to go to a specialty store.
 

kenobi65 said:
In a lot of ways, what you describe could be HeroQuest. Or Munchkin. ;)
Yeah, it's certainly been done before. It's not notably different from a game like Talisman, really. I guess JK's contention is that if that were done with the D&D brand, it would draw people into playing full-blown D&D. Maybe.

Thing is, to play any RPG you have to be willing to first off sit down at a table and FILL IN A FORM. That's the first thing you have to do in any tabletop RPG: create a character. There are very few people in this world for whom filling in a form equals anything approaching fun, and so tabletop RPGs are just not going to be a big draw.

Which is totally fine with me. My enjoyment of the hobby actually has nothing to do with how many other people play games -- as long as I've got enough for my gaming needs, that does the trick. There's no percentage to me in the hobby suddenly becoming hugely popular.
 

dmccoy1693 said:
I'm trying to get my daughter interested so for Christmas I bought her a Plush Dragonology Dragon and a Dragon Coloring book. From Target.

Really WotC, what's so hard about competing with these? Why not put out a big floor coloring book of some of the more iconic monsters in the MM? Mix it up, throw in some connect the dots or a dungeon themed maze with treasure at the end. Why am I buying a Dragonology Plush Dragon when I could be buying a D&D Plush Dragon and a Plush Paladin and a Plush Wizard to fight the Dragon. Plastic Minis are great and all for older kids, but not good for indoctrinating young kids.

With lots of D&D gamers now with kids, making stuff for their kids isn't a bad idea.
This is one of the most important points in this thread. WotC says they don't do crossover because they don't want Brand confusion. But why have a Dragonology brand at all? Why is the D&D brand worth so much in the CRPGs? And why not have crossover products? I don't mean D&D Diablo II. I mean where are the action figures from Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale? These computer titles create iconic characters. Why aren't they marketed outside the game? (I know the answer is, it's not in the license agreement. But that just means you need to fix that license arrangement.) Heck, why aren't there a Dr'zzt action figures and play sets?

And how many gamers without kids would buy that coloring book, too?
 

Grimstaff said:
Why no Toys'R'Us?

The Toys'r'us near me has both the D&D basic game and starter packs for D&D minis, although the latter are almost universally opened and taped shut. They're in the same section as board games.

Many of the big book stores near me have at least a shelf of D&D books, though rarely more than that. I know of two Waldenbooks which used to have anemic RPG sections, but which no longer seem to carry them.
 


barsoomcore said:
Thing is, to play any RPG you have to be willing to first off sit down at a table and FILL IN A FORM. That's the first thing you have to do in any tabletop RPG: create a character. There are very few people in this world for whom filling in a form equals anything approaching fun, and so tabletop RPGs are just not going to be a big draw.
Then remove the form. Create a "basic set" and then provide (collectable/non-collectable) "boosters" with additional characters/character types. So the boxset contains a short how to play sheet with 4 character "cards" and you also sell additional "cards" separately. Each "booster" contains 4 new characters and a new "adventure scenario" for use with the box set. Over time, the characters go up in level and the adventures require higher "level" characters.

The trick is putting D&D combat on an easy to read 1 page (no more) rulesheet and getting the characters to fit on one sheet. It would take a new edition of D&D to make this work....
 

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