Why Changes were made in 4e

[Ariosto]

There is no limit on the number of times you can rest each day ...

However, I see in the 3.5 PHB that there is still a daily limit to spell-casting. That's highlighted in the set time of day for divine spellcasters. The "recent casting limit" looks to me designed to prevent the "midnight mad minute" -- just the opposite of providing for this "daily limit really twice daily" finagling!

With 3e, it is explicit that one need not prepare all one's daily spells at once. It is not even necessary to go through a second rest, just to have an appropriate environment and spend between 15 minutes and an hour. That's a lot of flexibility -- and the whole scheme is a BIG boost for high-level casters versus 1e or even 2e -- but I do NOT think the intent is to void the stated daily limit.

 

[Ariosto]

When 3e came along casters got more spells per level than before ...

The bonus spells for "arcane" casters are I think the most notable addition, although the shift of some former low-level spells into the category of cantrips or orisons is also significant.

The observation about trading quality for quantity really comes to the fore in 4e. With even low-level magicians doing their stuff as often as the warriors do theirs, the one can't be all that much more fantastic than the other.

The way AC scaled was also a factor, after a while it seemed everyone got at least one attack that hit on a 2. This created rapid hit point attrition which put more pressure on healers, more so than before.

AD&D had high-level fighters hitting plate mail and shield on a basic 2+ (versus 5+ in OD&D), but the monsters did not keep up. With 3e, we can run into the situation of bonuses that keep piling up beyond the former caps.

Despite the "save or die" type of stuff, the combat aspect was/is mainly about attrition from fight to fight (even from day to day) in my experience. With 4e, wearing down happens more within the space of an encounter -- and hardly any hindrance that doesn't kill lasts more than a day.

 

[billd91]

Ah, but still, you ARE changing the fundamental aspect of the 4e wizard. I (ab)use Ghost Sound along with to good effect but just like a typical illusion in cRPGs, you have to script it so that only certain effects are possible.

The cantrps at will are an inherent class feature of the wizard so simply modifying/restricting how they work _IS_ changing the base wizard. Unlike pre 4e D&D rpgs where the wizard didn't change but certain spells did.

Again, if WOTC was making 4e to be easily ported to the computer, they certainly went in the opposite direction IMO.

Coming up with a few powers, even frequently used ones, that are harder to translate than others is hardly moving in the opposite direction of making D&D easy to translate onto the computer.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To thwart Leomunds Secure Shelter, remember that, despite its origins, its just a step up from a normal cottage. It is resistant to fire...but extreme heat or cold will affect its occupants eventually. And if there isn't enough room to create it in the first place- like a Kobold warren- it may not form at all.

(This is a ruling question- whether LSS's result is a 20' square cottage, or a cottage that is of any shape with 20' sq feet of floor space. And even if you rule it the latter, its clear from the nature of its contents that certain environments would be inimical to its creation)

Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion? If its entry portal location is known, its just as vulnerable to attack as the Rope Trick spell, and in exactly the same ways.

 

[AllisterH]

IMO, what kept spells like Rope Trick and Mord's Magnificent Mansion in check was that they were RARE.

If I go through my old PC sheets form my 1e days, there's no guarantees that the wizard would HAVE the spell to begin with (remember how "fickle" shall we say the spell acquisition rules were? Basically, they were DM fiat.)

But even more importantly, without easy item creation/acquisition Mord's had to compete with the OTHER 7th level spells. And even a 20th level wizard only had 3 slots. Same thing applies to Leomend with compared to 5th level spells.

Now admittedly, 2nd level spells in the PHB were not a great selection, but Rope trick was still fighting for selection with spells like Invisibility, Knock, Web , Blur and Mirror Image.

(This is why I think partly there had to be changes to the magic spells.

1e/2e balanced spells on a rarity basis. Rarity in being known and rarity in being cast.

The former restriction meaning that a PC couldn't build around any spell per se, since due to the random nature of spell acquisition, there's no certainity you would even KNOW a spell like say Rope Trick.

The latter restriction meant Knock isn't a problem when even for a 20th level wizard, he's got only 5 2nd level slots. )

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IMO, what kept spells like Rope Trick and Mord's Magnificent Mansion in check was that they were RARE.

If I go through my old PC sheets form my 1e days, there's no guarantees that the wizard would HAVE the spell to begin with (remember how "fickle" shall we say the spell acquisition rules were? Basically, they were DM fiat.)
<snip>
1e/2e balanced spells on a rarity basis. Rarity in being known and rarity in being cast.

The former restriction meaning that a PC couldn't build around any spell per se, since due to the random nature of spell acquisition, there's no certainity you would even KNOW a spell like say Rope Trick.

The latter restriction meant Knock isn't a problem when even for a 20th level wizard, he's got only 5 2nd level slots. )

QFT...though personally I don't have any real problem with the spells/day.

 

[Jack99]

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[Hussar]

IMO, what kept spells like Rope Trick and Mord's Magnificent Mansion in check was that they were RARE.

If I go through my old PC sheets form my 1e days, there's no guarantees that the wizard would HAVE the spell to begin with (remember how "fickle" shall we say the spell acquisition rules were? Basically, they were DM fiat.)

But even more importantly, without easy item creation/acquisition Mord's had to compete with the OTHER 7th level spells. And even a 20th level wizard only had 3 slots. Same thing applies to Leomend with compared to 5th level spells.

Now admittedly, 2nd level spells in the PHB were not a great selection, but Rope trick was still fighting for selection with spells like Invisibility, Knock, Web , Blur and Mirror Image.

(This is why I think partly there had to be changes to the magic spells.

1e/2e balanced spells on a rarity basis. Rarity in being known and rarity in being cast.

The former restriction meaning that a PC couldn't build around any spell per se, since due to the random nature of spell acquisition, there's no certainity you would even KNOW a spell like say Rope Trick.

The latter restriction meant Knock isn't a problem when even for a 20th level wizard, he's got only 5 2nd level slots. )

But there is a flip side to that. You only had a very limited repetoire, so you made sure (usually by bugging the crap out of your DM ) that you got certain spells that were almost always going to be useful. Direct damage spells being probably the ones most likely asked for.

And, in 2e, specialist wizards and certain kits got to choose one spell per level automatically, so, rarity was already going out the door way back when as well.

To be honest, IMHO, rarity isn't a particularly good form of balance. If something is really powerful, but it appears in a given campaign, it's not rare. It only has to appear once. And every wizard you ganked had a spell book to be raided. It didn't take too much to build up a fairly lengthy spell book.

 

[SSquirrel]

Ah, but still, you ARE changing the fundamental aspect of the 4e wizard. I (ab)use Ghost Sound along with to good effect but just like a typical illusion in cRPGs, you have to script it so that only certain effects are possible.

Given the world of CRPGs and MMORPGs, many of the possible uses of Ghost Sound would equate to "nothing happened that influences any character or NPC". Ghost Sound would likely be used similar to a Rogue's Distract ability [all MMO references will be WoW related], which would be a useful thing to have in a party. Distract an NPC so people can sneak past or so a Rogue has a nice clear back shot.

The cantrps at will are an inherent class feature of the wizard so simply modifying/restricting how they work _IS_ changing the base wizard. Unlike pre 4e D&D rpgs where the wizard didn't change but certain spells did.

Again, if WOTC was making 4e to be easily ported to the computer, they certainly went in the opposite direction IMO.

No. Changing the chasis of the class would be saying that all wizards now wear plate mail, are unable to cast spell without first having picked a bouquet of flowers, and no spells deal damage anymore, they all are heal spells. Usually in the past, if a power was going to only be used in ways that don't really further the action (ie kill stuff or heal) they don't appear at all. If the power appears at all, even in limited form, that puts it a step better than prior D&D based games.

A Cantrip is a wizard spell, they are changing a spell, just like older editions. All wizards in prior edition had Cantrip and it described a few possibilities and some limitations, but then was totally open.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Changing the chasis of the class would be saying that all wizards now wear plate mail, are unable to cast spell without first having picked a bouquet of flowers, and no spells deal damage anymore, they all are heal spells.

It's funny. If changing how ghost sound works is such a major change that a CRPG wouldn't be 4e, how can the cumulative (and far more substantive) changes of 4e (and 3e) still be D&D?

Seems to me that this is a "have it both ways" kind of argument. Either these are major changes (and therefore the CRPG isn't 4e, but claims that 4e is D&D from the same folks become suspect) or these are trite changes (and there are not problems in accepting that the changes in the CRPG discussion are very minor changes, and that 4e is far more ammenable to CRPG play than previous editions are).

One way or the other!




RC