D&D 5E Why D&D is not (just) Tolkien

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How influential was Tolkien on early D&D, on a scale from 1-5?

  • 1. Not influential/ minimal influence.

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • 2. Very little influence / no more important than other fantasy writers.

    Votes: 19 10.9%
  • 3. Moderate influence.

    Votes: 65 37.4%
  • 4. A great deal of influence/a large amount of D&D is borrowed from him.

    Votes: 71 40.8%
  • 5. Exceptionally inflential/no D&D without him.

    Votes: 18 10.3%

  • Poll closed .
Well, we must be reading different threads and interpreting the poll differently.
The claim that no D&D but for Tolkien doesn't entail no chimerae but for Tolkien. People asserting the former aren't asserting the latter. They're identifying what they regard as a necessary condition, and/or what they regard as the framing influence (for PC races, an adventuring party on an epic quest, etc), not making a claim about the origin of every (or even most) individual story elements.

As to whether OD&D more closely resembles S&S or Tolkien
I don't think it very closely resembles either except in respect of tropes: Tolkien-esque tropes of the races in particular (plus some of the individual elements); S&S tropes of setting off to make their fortunes. But the actual play most closely resembles a wargame.

S&S has a strong "frolic" or spontaneity dimension to it. Conan takes chances. He kills the magistrate and guards then jumps his horse onto a boat to escape the city. Classic D&D doesn't encourage or reward this sort of thing at all.
 

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S&S has a strong "frolic" or spontaneity dimension to it. Conan takes chances. He kills the magistrate and guards then jumps his horse onto a boat to escape the city. Classic D&D doesn't encourage or reward this sort of thing at all.

Huh? S&S, whether Howard or Lieber, is all about grand adventures, defeating your enemy, and living in decadence off of the riches you took from said enemies. That is quite literally what classic D&D encourages and rewards.

I mean, the cover of the PHB, with the stealing of the idol gem, is right out of Conan
 


The claim that no D&D but for Tolkien doesn't entail no chimerae but for Tolkien. People asserting the former aren't asserting the latter. They're identifying what they regard as a necessary condition, and/or what they regard as the framing influence (for PC races, an adventuring party on an epic quest, etc), not making a claim about the origin of every (or even most) individual story elements.

I don't think it very closely resembles either except in respect of tropes: Tolkien-esque tropes of the races in particular (plus some of the individual elements); S&S tropes of setting off to make their fortunes. But the actual play most closely resembles a wargame.

S&S has a strong "frolic" or spontaneity dimension to it. Conan takes chances. He kills the magistrate and guards then jumps his horse onto a boat to escape the city. Classic D&D doesn't encourage or reward this sort of thing at all.
Classic D&D doesn't really not reward that behavior, either: just about anything can happen.
 

S&S, whether Howard or Lieber, is all about grand adventures, defeating your enemy, and living in decadence off of the riches you took from said enemies.
Which Conan stories does this describe? Not any of the following:

Tower of the Elephant
Phoenix on the Sword
The Scarlet Citadel
The Hour of the Dragon
The God in the Bowl
The Valley of Lost Women
People of the Black Circle
Jewels of Gwahlur
Xuthul of the Dusk

Etc.

The only one I can remember where Conan actually keeps the treasure is Shadows in Zamboula.

And Conan has a strong element of rollicking adventure. Whereas classic D&D - as articulated by Gygax in the "Successful Adventure" section of his PHB - is all about logistics and planning. Where do we see Conan planning his equipment; scouting and then coming back for a commando-style raid; etc?

That is pure wargaming, not S&S.
 

Which Conan stories does this describe? Not any of the following:

Tower of the Elephant
Phoenix on the Sword
The Scarlet Citadel
The Hour of the Dragon
The God in the Bowl
The Valley of Lost Women
People of the Black Circle
Jewels of Gwahlur
Xuthul of the Dusk

Etc.

The only one I can remember where Conan actually keeps the treasure is Shadows in Zamboula.

And Conan has a strong element of rollicking adventure. Whereas classic D&D - as articulated by Gygax in the "Successful Adventure" section of his PHB - is all about logistics and planning. Where do we see Conan planning his equipment; scouting and then coming back for a commando-style raid; etc?

That is pure wargaming, not S&S.

Um, Conan kills a king and takes his throne. That’s about as much “live richly off your enemy’s stuff you took” as you can get. Secondly, you do realize that Conan is not the only S&S literary hero, right? Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were literally all about going on adventures to get treasure so they could live decadently.
 


Yes, but to say that D&D has antecedent roots in wargaming is an observation roughly on par with, "Water is wet."

What I think most people have been trying to do is to determine the influence on D&D that allowed it to change from wargaming to a Fantasy RPG, to wit, the influences of high fantasy and swords and sorcery (pulp fantasy) as genres.
Well, the RPG part is from focusing on individual characters rather than units, which is the creative quantum leap.

The fantasy part is that this was done while playing Chainmail, which was gritty Medieval military history combined with primarily Tolkien and Howard influences. The fantasy elements of the later game are still largely based around wargame considerations, like MU as artillery.
 

Ugh...seduced back into this thread.

I'm pretty far on the "D&D is obviously heavily influenced by Tolkien" side of things, and at the same time I agree that Conan stories were all about "go on grand adventures, kill everything in your way, live like a king off the loot".

Now, it never really worked out* for him. Which is good because without his get-rich-quick schemes there wouldn't have really been a basis for Conan. But that doesn't mean getting rich quick wasn't his goal.

Damn...now I'm starting to get my Conan itch. Every few years I end up re-reading the whole collection of Conan stories.

By the way, can we at least agree that the mechanics of the Modiphius game utterly fail to capture the spirit/feel of Conan? I mean, their fluff is perfectly fine, but it feels like a generic RPG bolted on to Hyboria.

*Until he strangled Numedides, of course, but his usurpation of the throne is referenced but isn't actually the subject of any of the stories, and all (?) the stories in which he is already King were completed/written by other writers. And, I hope we can all agree, aren't anywhere near as good as Howard's work.
 

you do realize that Conan is not the only S&S literary hero, right? Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were literally all about going on adventures to get treasure so they could live decadently.
As I posted upthread, I don't know those stories as well as I know REH.

But you postd: "S&S, whether Howard or Lieber, is all about grand adventures, defeating your enemy, and living in decadence off of the riches you took from said enemies."

Conan aspires to defeating his enemies and living in decadence on the riches taken from those enemies. But that is not what the REH Conan stories are actually about. And a game of classic D&D, driven by the XP rules (especially XP-for-gold) and playedi in the style advocated by Gygax in the closing pages of his PHB (plan, choose equipment and spell load-outs wisely, scout, map, return for a commando-style raid) won't play much like a REH story. It will play like a squad-level wargame. Which is probably not a great surprise, given the sort of games Gygax and friends enjoyed.

Um, Conan kills a king and takes his throne.
In which story does that happen? That's right - none of them. As I posted, at the moment I can recall only one story in which Conan actually keeps the treasure, and it's not one of the better ones.

Yes, but to say that D&D has antecedent roots in wargaming is an observation roughly on par with, "Water is wet."
But to say that D&D, played as Gygax advises us to, plays like a squad-level wargame rather than like a Conan story, is (i) to say something true, and (ii) to say something that contradicts the contention that classic D&D plays like S&S.

Can you drift classic D&D into Conan-esque S&S if you want? Probably - a spell point system that doesn't require memorisation of spells, ignoring encumbrance rules, and some sort of formal or informal "second chance" system to reduce the likelihood of PC death when risks are taken all might help.

Likewise you can drfit the game into Tolkienesque play if you want.

Well, the RPG part is from focusing on individual characters rather than units, which is the creative quantum leap.
I think the other aspect of RPGing vs wargaming is the extent to which the fiction matters to adjudication. The players are expected to directly engage the fiction in their play of their characters, without looking to have this mediated by express mechanical rules.

EDIT:

I agree that Conan stories were all about "go on grand adventures, kill everything in your way, live like a king off the loot".

Now, it never really worked out* for him. Which is good because without his get-rich-quick schemes there wouldn't have really been a basis for Conan. But that doesn't mean getting rich quick wasn't his goal.

<snip>

*Until he strangled Numedides, of course, but his usurpation of the throne is referenced but isn't actually the subject of any of the stories, and all (?) the stories in which he is already King were completed/written by other writers.
This was cross-posted with my own post just above, and is at least a partial ninja.

Of course Conan aspires to riches. But the Conan stories don't involve planning, scouting, 10' poles, etc. They involve risks, random guesses, and choosing honour and loyalty over money and safety. There are RPGs that will produce a game that involves such events, and doesn't lead to repeated and near-certain PC death, but classic D&D isn't one of them.

And as far as stories of Conan being king are concerned, the first published Conan story - The Phoenix on the Sword - has Conan as king. The Scarelt Citadel and Hour of the Dragon are the other two I can recall at the moment.
 
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