D&D 3E/3.5 Why did they nerf the "sleep" spell in 3.5?

[Terath Ninir]

Okay, sleep has always been a spell that only the very lowest level characters used. At 5th level, you might as well erase it from your spellbook. But in 3.5, you might as well get rid of it at 3rd level!

It only affects 4 HD now, instead of 2d4. That's not even equal to the former average roll! Combined with the fact that the spell has a saving throw in 3e, you are basically wasting an action if you cast it, even at 3rd level.

Even worse is that they took away the variability. You can't Maximize it, you can't Empower it. I hardly think a 3rd level spell that can affect 3d4 HD, or a 4th level spell that affects 8 HD, is overpowered.

So -- what the heck were they thinking? Or were they thinking? They've made an already low power spell even less attractive than cause fear!

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

They took up the variability of this spell (IMO) for the same reason they did it for buff spells, so that people couldn't empower it many times over.

It's still a killer spell for low-HD monsters. And you're right, when you get to higher levels, your 1st-level spells should drastically diminish in utility. When they don't, it's somewhat of a sign (to me) that said spell is probably a little on the power side.

They also "nerfed" the auto-kill spells. Any spell that can cause the "helpless" condition has been modified, nerfed if you will, and that's not, IMO, a bad thing.

AR

Side question: is the girl in your sig the singer of Evanescence?

 

[Terath Ninir]

I have no problem with a low-level spell dropping off in power when you go up in levels. But sleep does it so drasticly now! I seriously would not bother with it after 2nd level any more.

As for the mutliple empowering: I don't see it. Use a 5th level slot to maybe affect 4d4 HD of 4 HD or less creatures? At 9th level, most parties aren't going to bother with that. Maybe an empowered fireball, but not an empowered sleep.

Anyway, I thought you couldn't use metamagic multiple times any more. Or am I wrong on that?

Side answer: Yes, that is Amy Lee.

 

[Falling Icicle]

They took up the variability of this spell (IMO) for the same reason they did it for buff spells, so that people couldn't empower it many times over.

I don't see anything wrong with empowering this spell. At best it rivaled higher level disabling spells like Hold Monster. At best.

It's still a killer spell for low-HD monsters. And you're right, when you get to higher levels, your 1st-level spells should drastically diminish in utility. When they don't, it's somewhat of a sign (to me) that said spell is probably a little on the power side.

I disagree. My high level characters use low level spells alot. Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Charm Person, Grease, Comprehend Languages, and True Strike all see alot of use (among others). Low Level spells tend to be designed with alot of utility in mind. This doesn't mean that they are overpowered. Why use a high level spell to accomplish what a low level spell can do?

One should not use Meteor Swarm to heat his afternoon tea, for example.

 

[Treebore]

I don't see anything wrong with empowering this spell. At best it rivaled higher level disabling spells like Hold Monster. At best.



I disagree. My high level characters use low level spells alot. Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Charm Person, Grease, Comprehend Languages, and True Strike all see alot of use (among others). Low Level spells tend to be designed with alot of utility in mind. This doesn't mean that they are overpowered. Why use a high level spell to accomplish what a low level spell can do?

One should not use Meteor Swarm to heat his afternoon tea, for example.

I think sleep could, and should be scaled with the cassters level similiar to magic missile. I think it is a waste to have spells become useless after you reach a certain level, which sleep certainly does become useless.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Anyway, I thought you couldn't use metamagic multiple times any more. Or am I wrong on that?

No, that's right...

I wonder if you can use Empower and Sudden Empower (miniHB?) on the same spell (but that's a whole other thread right there)...

As for the problem at hand... I'd say that if it freaks out people that the spell has lost so much power, then, maybe (just maybe) it's because the spell had too much power to begin with...

And you're right about erasing a spell from your spellbook. Not all spells are supposed to be useful at all levels. A wizard should clean up his book once in a while

Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Charm Person, Grease, Comprehend Languages, and True Strike

Feather fall is really useful, that's true. Magic missile is overpowered for a 1st level spell. Charm person will be useful against low-level humanoids. Grease is cool, and may have multiple uses. Comprehend languages is a must, yes. True strike, I think that it's a powerful spell, yes (I didn't house rule it, but something along the lines of "+1 to hit/caster level (max +5); casting this spell is a free action (like feather fall)" would be, IMO, more appropriate if somewhat much less powerful...).

Those are useful spells, yes, but a first level spell should not be able to render opponents helpless at higher levels. I'm not saying that Sleep should have been changed, I'm just trying to understand why it has been.

One should not use Meteor Swarm to heat his afternoon tea, for example.

Now you're being silly

AR

 

[BSF]

It's also a full-round action to cast. I have wondered why any 1st level wizard/Sorceror would want to cast this. You might get lucky and affect up to 4 creatures, or none. Or, you could use magic missile and you might get lucky and kill one outright, without a save. It seems like a weak spell at 1st level that just gets weaker with every level increase.

I could understand the change to a set 4HD, or the full-round action to cast, but both?

 

[Thanee]

Actually, the one thing that makes sleep really bad now, is that its casting time became one full round!

The 4 HD doesn't bug me much, it's more predictable that way, which is an advantage at least.

And I really wouldn't call sleep a low-power spell (in 3.0), at least at low levels (1st-3rd) it has always been one of the best spells (especially back then (1e/2e), when it had no save (IIRC)).

Now color spray is even better in comparison (altho it has a much lower range), in 3.0 they were about equal.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Terath Ninir]

It's also a full-round action to cast.

Now I feel silly. They made a change that makes the spell completely useless for a caster in a small party (because you *are* going to get hit and it *is* going to be disrupted at low levels) and I'm complaining about the HD it affects. Silly me.

But I'm not as crazy as Altamont! Look at the spell description, man. Yes, in 1e and 2e it was all-powerful until 5th level when, like a switch, it became useless. In 3.0, it became more reasonable. In 3.5, it's basically useless, now that several people have pointed out the casting time. You may make yourself feel all lovely and "devil's advocate"-ey by saying that, but you're flat wrong.

I just wish WotC had actually playtested the changes they made in 3.5. They've got some good ideas in there, but it sure sucks sometimes playing using a rough draft...

 

[Quasqueton]

Also note that the area of effect was reduced to 10' radius.

This spell was nerfed three ways.

From standard action to one round.

From 20' radius to 10' radius.

From 2d4 HD to 4 HD.


I suspect part of the reasoning was because of its deadliness against low-level PCs.

Quasqueton