D&D 3E/3.5 Why did they nerf the "sleep" spell in 3.5?

[Falling Icicle]

As for the problem at hand... I'd say that if it freaks out people that the spell has lost so much power, then, maybe (just maybe) it's because the spell had too much power to begin with...

I don't know anyone who would say that the 3.0 Sleep spell was overpowered. In my experience just the opposite was true.

And you're right about erasing a spell from your spellbook. Not all spells are supposed to be useful at all levels. A wizard should clean up his book once in a while

I totally disagree with that part. No spell should ever become useless. I have found good uses for just about every spell in the game, throughout high levels even. The only exceptions are those spells which have some lame level cap which prevents them from being used against high level creatures at all. Sleep is a good example of this.

Magic missile is overpowered for a 1st level spell.

I actually agree with you on that part. But I don't think it is so overpowered as to break the game or be any real cause for concern. Even Fireball is overpowered for a 3rd level spell. But it is a benchmark, a D&D tradition. And so is Magic Missile. If you want to balance it just require a ranged touch attack for each missile.

Those are useful spells, yes, but a first level spell should not be able to render opponents helpless at higher levels.

You have a point. The ability to put a creature to sleep pretty much guarantees defeat. But then again, so does Charm Person under the right circumstances. Perhaps the spell could work in a manner similar to Color Spray, having reduced effects against creatures with a HD of X or higher. Maybe a 1-4 HD creature is put to sleep for 10 minutes, a 5-8 HD creature for 1 minute, 9-12 HD for 1d4 rounds, 13+ for one round, or some such. Just an idea.

I'm not saying that Sleep should have been changed, I'm just trying to understand why it has been.

With all due respect, I think you are putting way too much faith in the developers. They can, and have, made mistakes. If they were perfect and every rule was balanced and based on totally solid reasoning, there would have been no need for a revision (except to make money, of course).

[Edit] Fixed quotes.

 

[Thanee]

I just wish WotC had actually playtested the changes they made in 3.5. They've got some good ideas in there, but it sure sucks sometimes playing using a rough draft...

Yeah, some of the 3.5 changes really seem excessive, especially when it comes to spellcasting.

We have changed a few of those via house rules (sleep is a worthy candidate as well, but it is too unimportant to bother), altho we are happy with most (like 95%) of the revised changes, so it's not all bad.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Destil]

A one full round casting time is one of my favroite balancing aspects of spell design, and I quite like that aspect of 3.5 sleep. I've certinaly gotten off plenty of Summon Monster Is over all my time playing 3E.

HD reduction is pretty bad overkill, though, I'd agree. Oh, well.. I always liked color spray better, but I usualy play more in-your-face style wizards or conjurers with energy missile or summoning spells instead of sleep or magic missile.

 

[BSF]

I suspect the spell was nerfed because of the affect it could have on PC's. But, just leaving a save in there would have helped with that aspect.

From a higher level PC perspective, I actually liked the thought of having to use sleep to take out friendlies that were well-meaning, but misguided. One of those things that you could use to disable to town guard without hurting them so you could keep pursuing the escaping villian. Sure, you were going to get in trouble for it later, but if you achieved your goal, you could always argue the greater good type thing. It just seemed better than pummeling them black and blue. Now, as a full-round casting, it seems kind of silly to even use that. Better to just intimidate them I guess.

 

[Gizzard]

Sleep still seems to be a "Top 3" first level spell; I don't see fewer people taking it, I just see fewer people taking it as a first pick. Which means to me that it's correctly balanced with the other first level spells.

OTOH, I have seen a Sorcerer refuse to take Sleep, echoing the logic in this thread that "It's useless at high levels". Then that same Sorcerer complained about being useless himself when the party was attacked by a tiny horde of Goblins. Hello? There is nothing like Sleep for the mass slaughter of sub-1HD creatures. Sure it's mostly useless above 5th level, but I hope no one is planning to be dead weight to the party early on so they can be super-optimized at 19th level. Take Sleep, it's still one of the Wizard's most important tricks at low levels.

 

[CCamfield]

The loss of a hit die on average is kind of bad, but knowing that you'll never roll a 2 or 3 is good too. Sleep can still be a killer spell; in the last game session I played in, we were attacked by a pretty large force (for our 6th level group of 5 characters) of fighter-barbarian orcs, some very minor demons, and three ogres. An entangle spell slowed down some of them - thank god - but the three ogres were coming in from the north near the end of the fight.

The drow bard cast sleep on one of them. It failed its save, and the lizardman fighter who had engaged them (he has a huge AC, but three on one did NOT look good) then cut off his head with a coup de grace. They did the same thing again on the next round; I forget how the last one died. But two sleep spells turned what looked like an overwhelming last group of enemies into swiss cheese.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Sure it's mostly useless above 5th level, but I hope no one is planning to be dead weight to the party early on so they can be super-optimized at 19th level. Take Sleep, it's still one of the Wizard's most important tricks at low levels.

Especially since in 3.5 he'd be able to switch sleep out at 6th lvl with another 1st lvl spell.

edit- For a Sorc that is lol, not really an issue for Wiz, who have plenty of spells to select from at higher levels

 

[Li Shenron]

I simply hate spells which become useless at higher levels. A spell that simply becomes less effective against creatures with more HD - such as Color Spray - still has a reason to be used, but Sleep simply has no use once you don't meet creatures with 4 HD or less.

It doesn't matter if the spell is too powerful at low levels. If that is still the problem even after the revision, they should have thought about nerfing it even more (we can think of many ways to do that). Making a spell useless after some level because you didn't make it balanced at low level is not a way to have it "balanced on the average" but rather a way to have it double-unbalanced. And it opened the way to the most stupid rule in the revision, the "spell switching" for Sorcerers, which is the only case in the game of someone losing a former ability.

 

[Raduin711]

moo.

If you really wanted to fix this spell, so that it doesn't have that cap effect, you would have to make it a higher level spell. Like 5th level high, or maybe worse. After all, if something goes to sleep in the middle of combat, it's pretty much dead already. But I think it should stay as is, since it is kind of a D&D "Sacred Cow".

As for the changes, It serves to balance things out. Sleep is or was the 2nd most powerful 1st level spell (magic missile being the first) so now i think it's more on the level of the rest. As for MM, I think designers have said that it serves its purpose in the spell list.

 

[Thanee]

If sleep were a standard action, it would be fine, I think.
But with one full round casting time, it's very rarely useful, since you have to guess where to place it, because creatures move while you are still casting.

Bye
Thanee