D&D 3E/3.5 Why did they nerf the "sleep" spell in 3.5?

[Li Shenron]

As for the changes, It serves to balance things out. Sleep is or was the 2nd most powerful 1st level spell (magic missile being the first) so now i think it's more on the level of the rest. As for MM, I think designers have said that it serves its purpose in the spell list.

I think that the difficulty comes from the fact that a spell that makes one fall asleep sounds like a simple trick for a wizard, but in game terms the effect is pretty powerful, since it turns an opponent into helpless.

There could have been many other ways to change this spell. For example it could be working as Color Spray, with different effects depending on the victim's HD; for example, it could have been that characters with more than 4 HD they don't fall asleep, but instead they just get drowsy (with penalties equivalent to being "sickened" for example). That would mean that there is still a reason to cast the spell at higher leveld, although to much lesser effect.

(edit)
Another easy fix could have been to remove the part "normal noise does not (awake a creature subject to sleep)" and make it more or less work as the 3.5 Hold Person - with one save per round.

 

[Li Shenron]

If sleep were a standard action, it would be fine, I think.
But with one full round casting time, it's very rarely useful, since you have to guess where to place it, because creatures move while you are still casting.

That doesn't bother me too much. It definitely makes Sleep much less useful in combat. Maybe the whole trouble is about the fact that everyone used it exactly in combat to turn enemies into helpless and CdG them, which is kind of lame

But the spell has good usefulness out-of-combat, for sneaking especially, although assassination-oriented usage cannot be prevented compeletely, unless you change the spell more significantly like adding that every serious threaten to the target break the spell immediately (more or less in the same guise that Invisibility works).

 

[Staffan]

If sleep were a standard action, it would be fine, I think.
But with one full round casting time, it's very rarely useful, since you have to guess where to place it, because creatures move while you are still casting.

Except they changed that in 3.5e as well. "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect" (under "Casting Time" in the magic section) and "You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell" (under "Aiming a spell" in the same section).

 

[Janos Audron]

If sleep were a standard action, it would be fine, I think.
But with one full round casting time, it's very rarely useful, since you have to guess where to place it, because creatures move while you are still casting.

Bye
Thanee

I remember some "Readied actions to casting" thread where someone wanted the orcs to run away from a wizard casting a fireball. The reason this trick didn't work was because you aim the spell when you finish casting.

Is this no longer true, or doesn't this work for spells with casting time > standard action?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Sleep still seems to be a "Top 3" first level spell; I don't see fewer people taking it, I just see fewer people taking it as a first pick. Which means to me that it's correctly balanced with the other first level spells.

Are you serious?

I've never seen Sleep taken in all the time playing or running 3e because it just didn't seem like a great spell now (compared to the old days - once per adventure automatically take out 4-16 orcs? Most excellent). In fact it didn't even seem like a good spell.

Now with the 3.5e multi-nerf I doubt that I'd ever see it even contemplated for a moment

(Plus I think that Andy Collins et al weren't thinking too clearly when they both stopped stacking of empower *and* reduced the number of spells that had variable effects. Either one of those could have been a solution to the problem of, say, uber-buffed bulls strength. But to do both? Did anyone *ever* report a problem with sleep as being too good? Did anyone *ever* say "damn you, that empowered sleep spell is too good. Why didn't you just cast fireball like everyone else?")

The nerf to sleep was completely barmy IMO.

 

[Thanee]

Except they changed that in 3.5e as well. "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect" (under "Casting Time" in the magic section) and "You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell" (under "Aiming a spell" in the same section).

Oh, must have overlooked that part. Thanks.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Another solution is to allow the spell to induce exhaustion if a save is failed, with all of the related penalties. That way it can still put an occasional guard to sleep and remain useful in combat without being overpowerful. If you really, really want something to fall unconscious, you'll have to cast the spell multiple times.

 

[Nail]

Why not just make it a Std action spell, Target: One creature, Save: Will negate? Remove the HD cap completely!

Then impose realistic limitations on the sleep. If there is noise, the sleeper can wake up with a Listen check.

 

[Psion]

I agree, CZ.

And here I was just considering going with 3.5 for my default spell list for my new campaign. Now I am having second thoughts...

At the very least, it will join Buffs on the list of spells I will tweak (I also preferred random buffs so you can metamagic them.)

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Oh, must have overlooked that part. Thanks.

Sure, but with sleep posing such a risk to your own party members if they're caught in it at low level, I think the point about not being able to target it effectively due to the 1 round casting time still is relevant. By the time you're done casting, who knows whether there will be any safe place to actually put the effect?