Why did WotC start the Polymorph "Errata Wars"?

[Nifft]

Polymorph was both too good and too complex.

If the players were paying attention, it was a show stealer. If the players weren't paying attention, it was too much of a pain to use. (Much like summoning spells and Wild Shape.)

Fixed forms and scaling augmentation (as in Psionics). That's what I want to see.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Twowolves]

That's fine, except it ignores Knowledge skills. If I've got 15 ranks in Kn Dungeoneering, I would think that I've seen at least pictures, and pretty detailed ones at that, of pretty much anything I can make a Kn check about.

It could easily be limited to 1 form per rank in the applicable Knowledge skill (Nature for animal forms, Planes for outsiders and elementals, etc).

 

[BASHMAN]

That's what the new spells are effectively doing.

But those spells have a much shorter duration. Also, I remember you can turn into a troll and a red dragon, but what about a Merrow or Scrag or some other underwater thing? Polymorphing into an underwater creature would be a great thing to do for an underwater adventure, and there in fact is such an adventure in RPGA. The same could be said for being able to turn into somethign that flies-- and the 9th level spell to turn into a red dragon for 17+ rounds is not what I have in mind. There should be a lower level spell, maybe 5th that lets you turn into a griffin or something like that.

Frankly the new spells messed up. Instead of saying here is the 1 creature you can turn into, for a fraction of the time normally allowed, they should have said, "Here is a list of 5 creatures you can turn into. The upshot-- you gain all their supernatural abilities, etc, unlike polymorph". This would make it worth doing.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I watched what a wizard polymorphed into a behir could do. It's very, very ugly. If your BAB is high enough, you simply substitute unarmed attacks, (sure you take the AOO) for primary attacks. Why you ask? Because every successful grapple initiates 6 rake attacks from the behir. With a plus umpteen grapple bonus because I'm a huge creature, I win pretty much every time. Grapple, rake, pin, rake. Continue to pin, rake. Obliterate pretty much any creature. Sure, it won't work if we're in tight quarters, but, you aren't in tight quarters in every fight.

And that's just out of the SRD.

Just out of curiosity, what race was that wizard of? Barring any feats I might have missed (or forgotten), you get to polymorph into a creature one size larger than yourself, not two. A behir is a Huge creature, so it either was a Large wizard, a feat at work, or somebody forgot to read that tidbit in the spell description.

Apart from that, you got to be one hell of a wizard to top the BAB of a behir...Bite +15, Claw +10 is not easily done with a wizard BAB. Especially if you get a -2 for being in combat if you don't make your Will (DC 19). All in all, an exceptional wizard.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Allowing SU and EX abilities is usually where you get into trouble (Choker and Balor, I'm looking at you!)

What version of the spell allowed the transformed subject the use of any of the SU or EX abilities of the creature it transformed into?

 

[frankthedm]

But those spells have a much shorter duration. Also, I remember you can turn into a troll and a red dragon, but what about a Merrow or Scrag or some other underwater thing?

We have a spell called water breathing. Very generous duration that can be used to benefit the whole party.

The same could be said for being able to turn into somethign that flies-- and the 9th level spell to turn into a red dragon for 17+ rounds is not what I have in mind. There should be a lower level spell, maybe 5th that lets you turn into a griffin or something like that

5th level has a lovely spell called overland flight.

Frankly the new spells messed up. Instead of saying here is the 1 creature you can turn into, for a fraction of the time normally allowed, they should have said, "Here is a list of 5 creatures you can turn into. The upshot-- you gain all their supernatural abilities, etc, unlike polymorph". This would make it worth doing.

Versatility in a spell is supposed to have a huge cost to the spells power. The new spells addressed that, just as the shapeshifter druid variant addressed the problem of wildshape.

Don’t forget, troll shape is a swift spell. That’s approximately 4 spell level for the quicken right there. Also the spell makes the caster almost unkillable thanks to the regeneration ability making everything other than fire or acid damage nonlethal. Sure it ends when the caster is knocked out, but the damage does not change back to lethal.

 

[AllisterH]

The versatility of the polymorph spell has always been the main problem. Not only did it affect the DM (if you see a cool monster, you would then have to check to see what abuses your player could do if they transformed into it) but even the player itself (Shapechange at 9th level invalidates SEVERAL spells including other 9th level spells such as Etherealness since you could simply shapechange into the appropriate form).

Polymorph was also one of the few schools that didn't have a defined expectation. What I mean is, you cast Finger of Death, you know what effect you're going to have. Polymorph? Hell no.

 

[Caliban]

Just as an experiment..if anybody wants to join. Lets take the MM1 and try to find a monster that is Large, not templated (only the "average" version of the monster allowed), and would be a serious problem compared to a 7th level game under the conditions of a 3E Polymorph Self/Other spell? *digs out MM1*

Edit: I dare say a Fire Giant would be a better choice for a fighting shape anyway.

Why limit yourself to Large when you can easiy go Huge? And don't forget that you keep the extraordinary attack forms of the shape you gain.

Trouble monsters I've seen or heard of being abused in the RPGA (just from the monster manual):

Rehmoraz - 7HD and huge, with Swallow Whole.
Annis Hag (large humanoid shape with a high str and natural armor)
Green Hag (stay Medium and have natural armor and strength)
Rust Monster - the rust ability is an extraordinary attack form
Treant - Huge and does double damage to objects with each hit. Great for destroying walls and other structures. Not available until higher levels, but a nice option.
Hydra - Full attack with all heads as a standard action. Another powerful option at higher levels.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Why limit yourself to Large when you can easiy go Huge? And don't forget that you keep the extraordinary attack forms of the shape you gain.

Trouble monsters I've seen or heard of being abused in the RPGA (just from the monster manual):

Rehmoraz - 7HD and huge, with Swallow Whole.
Annis Hag (large humanoid shape with a high str and natural armor)
Green Hag (stay Medium and have natural armor and strength)
Rust Monster - the rust ability is an extraordinary attack form
Treant - Huge and does double damage to objects with each hit. Great for destroying walls and other structures. Not available until higher levels, but a nice option.
Hydra - Full attack with all heads as a standard action. Another powerful option at higher levels.

Large because most (assumption) casters are of Medium size, and Polymorph only allows to go one size larger.

Extraordinary abilities are not granted by the 3E version, attack or otherwise. No rust attack for the rust monster shape.

 

[Caliban]

Large because most (assumption) casters are of Medium size, and Polymorph only allows to go one size larger.

Extraordinary abilities are not granted by the 3E version, attack or otherwise. No rust attack for the rust monster shape.

Not sure what version of the spell you are using, but that's not the one in the SRD or my 3.5 players handbook.

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Material Component
An empty cocoon.

No limit on the size, other than not being smaller than fine, and it explicitly grants extraordinary special attacks (I bolded the relevent text).

This is the version of the spell used by the RPGA until the PHBII changes.