Why didn't Eberron click?

[The Souljourner]

I like it. It's the first WoTC campaign setting where it's not standard fantasy "here's your castle, here's your dragon" crap. And I think everyone who is complaining about the psionic support was getting their hopes up too high, assuming it would be the second coming of Dark Sun. Personally, I was reading it, and was suprised at the amount of psionics in the book! Since I had never seen any marketing for it, I guess I hadn't been sucked into that kind of thinking. here's the thing - if you integrate too much psionics into the book, then people are *forced* to use it, and I'm sure that's not what they wanted to do. So they laid a foundation where you can add it in if you want. I'm pretty sure there will be a psionics supplement for Eberron where they explain exactly how psionics are integrated into everything else.

I like it. Sure, Arcana Unearthed is a heck of a lot more different mechanically, but it still feels like the standard D&D flavor. Eberron brings a much different flavor using nearly the same rules. They're attempting to do different things.. and I really like what they've done with Eberron. THey've proven you can use the standard D&D rules and get something that comes out feeling quite different.

I've been playing D&D for about 15 years, and this is the first setting in a long time that has sparked any interest besides "what crunchy bits can I get out of it"?

-The Souljourner

 

[Quasqueton]

I don't know where I got the idea, but I had expected Eberron to be a setting where everything D&D was integrated and worked well together.

I thought the designers were going to find a way to make all the varied and disparate features & creatures of D&D fit and made sense.

I mean, like dinosaurs. I thought, "Cool, they're finding a regular place for these creatures that have been a staple of the MM through the years."

I figured they'd create a setting where the managerie of PC races and classes wouldn't seem so ridiculous. A setting where a party with a minotaur barbarian, a kobold sorcerer, a human cleric, a dwarf rogue, and a juvenile mindflayer would make sense.

I was expecting a setting that meshed perfectly and seemlessly with the standard feel and mechanics of the core rules and "official" supplement books.

But instead, it seems that they just reworked all the races and monsters and concepts to make something completely different. I mean, they even added new races. [I am really turned off by the concept of a race of constructs.]

I was hoping for a setting that players would understand from just reading the core rule books. "Elves are like explained in the PHB, gnomes are like explained in the PHB, and here is why and how." Rather, it seems Eberron says, "Forget what you read in the PHB, these elves and gnomes are completely different."

I was expecting a campaign setting that worked within the commonly understood "world" of D&D, and made it all fit logically and workably. But instead, Eberron seems to be just another completely different setting. "It is unique, just like all the other settings."

In general, I was expecting a setting of "D&D, in all its glory and magnitude and variety, making sense and working smoothly in one world." I was expecting a setting where the Players just needed the PHB, or the PsiHB, or OA, or maybe Savage Species -- the setting would have all these flavors covered. But instead, Eberron seems to be a whole *other* concept, again.

I have not bought the books, and have not read more than a few paragraphs. But I have read all the Eberron threads here. Eberron's concept seems to be exactly opposite what I was expecting and hoping for. It is not the ultimate "D&D setting"; it is just another unique campaign setting.

<shrug> I'm disappointed.

Quasqueton

 

[csi]

Its interesting and has lots of scope for cool adventures but I agree it didn't have the same WOW factor as when I first read Planescape or Darksun. Perhaps its charm will increase over time.

 

[WizarDru]

There was never any promise of "complete psionic support", even from WotC marketing. The April Gearing Up for Eberron article stated that, "if you don't want psionics in your Eberron campaign, it's as simple as just making the decision. The campaign setting was designed to allow you to do just that -- the continent of Sarlona can simply be a place that people (and monsters) don't come from and your characters don't visit."

Just so. Personally, I think folks are looking at a feature and thinking it's a flaw. Eberron offers you the best of both worlds. It compromises by making Psionics cleanly a part of the setting, while at the same time making it clear that you could completely ignore it if you don't like Psionics. And let's be clear, some folks HATE psionics in every form it's ever been in.

I assume there will be a supplement hardback with details about the continent of Sarlona (iirc) and the races that live there. I'm sure there will be specific details of how they can interact with the game, and so forth.

One of the things that truly was unpleasant about 2e was the cross-referencing of products, as I understand it. I only inherited a few pieces of 2e material, but even those all assumed I had other books, and told me to go buy them to understand parts of the materials I DID have. If WotC has gone a tad too far in the other direction, I still consider that the more preferable state. YMMV.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

1) Yes, in a way, psionics wasn't given full attention. And why? Because Eberron is mainly designed to work with the existing material. And most of the existing material deals with what's in the core books. Personally, I would have wanted to see one psionic prestige in the book but hey, just because it wasn't in the main book doesn't mean they won't publish it next time. I honestly think that a good room for psionics in Eberron would be in the supplements (unfortunately, aside from the published adventures, Sharn is the only known release so far, so I guess everything else will have to wait until next year).

Well, yes. If WOTC put in a psionic prestige class, then there would be legions of people (As I'm guessing that less than half of D&D players even own the XPH) saying "I thought they said we didn't NEED the XPH to play Eberron?!?!! What am I going to do with this prestige class? It is useless and taking up space in my book!!"

You have to understand that there is a reason there isn't a LOT of new mechanics in the Eberron book. That would ruin the entire concept of "This is a D&D world, just like any other, with all the same feats, skills, monsters, only slightly different." Too different and you have a large amount of people who won't play because they don't want to learn a bunch of rules just to play in a different world, and too similar and not enough people will buy it.

Plus, a lot of people are like me, and want to be able to use everything from their books. If their favorite character is a favoured soul, then there is a way to fit it into Eberron. If you want to be a psion, you can be from another continent where there are lots of them. But you'll notice that none of the organizations or NPCs say "These are mostly Favoured Souls.." because people without access to that book would be disappointed.

The same, but different. I actually really like that. It will give a new feeling to the game, without changing the characters or mechanics we already know. It will ALLOW me to use any of my books without forcing me too.

Majoru Oakheart

 

[edbonny]

I don't know where I got the idea, but I had expected Eberron to be a setting where everything D&D was integrated and worked well together.

I thought the designers were going to find a way to make all the varied and disparate features & creatures of D&D fit and made sense. <snip>

I was expecting a setting that meshed perfectly and seemlessly with the standard feel and mechanics of the core rules and "official" supplement books. <snip>

I was expecting a campaign setting that worked within the commonly understood "world" of D&D, and made it all fit logically and workably. <snip>

In general, I was expecting a setting of "D&D, in all its glory and magnitude and variety, making sense and working smoothly in one world." I was expecting a setting where the Players just needed the PHB, or the PsiHB, or OA, or maybe Savage Species -- the setting would have all these flavors covered. But instead, Eberron seems to be a whole *other* concept, again. <snip>

Quasqueton

I echo this sentiment exactly. I also expected the same treatment of Eberron and it was my main motivation for getting the book. There is no doubt that Eberron is a well-done setting and an excellent place to adventure on many fronts but I really, really, really wanted tie-ins and direct links to previous published WotC materials (such as Region X is where the prestige classes Y and Z from the book Complete V are common. Add options for those folk who don't own those books. Continue to next region). I would also have liked to see a nation of desmodu, abeil and all the other races from the MM2 and FF. Put some slaadi and rilmani in there somewhere even if they only get a bit part. You get the idea. It's a big world. Someone's got to furnish it (with apologies to IKEA).

And this is not an issue of anyone offering advice telling me that *I* can do these things myself. I know I can. It is just I really would have enjoyed the setting so much more if every monster, every race, every class and every feat were somehow incorporated in the setting (a very tall order, I know, and in hindsight very likely impractical from a business standpoint).

Ed

 

[WizarDru]

I was expecting a campaign setting that worked within the commonly understood "world" of D&D, and made it all fit logically and workably. But instead, Eberron seems to be just another completely different setting. "It is unique, just like all the other settings."

Item number one under '10 things you need to know about Eberron' in the book states quite clearly that anything in the core books has a place in Eberron. And it does. It's does an admirable job of what you describe, but more in the specific application of concept, IMHO, rather than explain it all away. It wasn't designed as a core rule apologist, if you will. A lot of explanations are given, within the setting for many things, such as aberrations all being the product of one races experimentation, for example.

In general, I was expecting a setting of "D&D, in all its glory and magnitude and variety, making sense and working smoothly in one world." I was expecting a setting where the Players just needed the PHB, or the PsiHB, or OA, or maybe Savage Species -- the setting would have all these flavors covered. But instead, Eberron seems to be a whole *other* concept, again.

I'm a little confused at that statement. Were you expecting it to encompass everything that came before, such as OA and Savage Species, or just make a world where the core was applied? There's no question that Eberron isn't either of those, I think. I would argue it's "D&D, making sense and working smoothly in one world", but I think that full sentence is unobtainable, myself. D&D, on it's face, is full of logical fallacies that would require convulted answers to explain away, IMHO. (hong's chickens comes to mind here )

<shrug> I'm disappointed.

Reasonable and understandable. Here's hoping you do find one, eventually.

 

[ForceUser]

Its interesting and has lots of scope for cool adventures but I agree it didn't have the same WOW factor as when I first read Planescape or Darksun. Perhaps its charm will increase over time.

I agree. Planescape & Dark Sun both wowed me the first time I picked them up. I was amazed at the scope and depth of innovation in each setting. I was blown away by how each setting had turned D&D on its head, making something fresh out of the same old thing. And I was disappointed by how little my players cared. They wanted their D&D, which is predictable, understandable, and required little intellectual investment. Not once in ten years did I get a Planescape game going for more than a few sessions, and forget about Dark Sun.

WotC is smart. For most gamers, those settings were just too different. For all their innovations, Planescape & Dark Sun forgot about Joe Gamer - the guy who just wants to show up, roll some dice and relax. He doesn't want to be burdened with too much information about the campaign setting. He wants to know that elves are elves, dwarves are dwarves, and that knights ride around a Eurocentric landscape slaying dragons. Anything more than that is too great an investment. You might notice, then, that WotC advertised not for another Planescape, but for a new setting that was "the same, but different."

Very clever, that. You give the gamers who want the old reliable axioms of D&D to hold true, and you give the fans of newness something new to play with in terms of campaign flavor. Guys who just want to roll dice won't get bewildered by a setting full of fundamental changes, and guys like me who love flavor innovations get them in spades. Not everyone will be happy, but Eberron is still a win for WotC for these reasons.

 

[JPL]

It is just I really would have enjoyed the setting so much more if every monster, every race, every class and every feat were somehow incorporated in the setting

Ed

That would've been a bad idea at this stage in the game.

The campaign setting book had to give DMs and players a sense of the entire world --- geography, cosmology, history, but also tone and style. That's already a tall order.

One of the premises of the setting is that "if it's in D&D, it's in Eberron." But especially once you get beyond the core rulebooks, "what's in D&D" varies from playing group to playing group. Devoting lots of space in the core campaign book to these add-ons makes them seem like part of the "canon" of the setting.

There is a huge assortment of books to consider [even if one limits the choices to WotC products], and precious space in the core campaign book should not go towards defining the role in the campaign setting of the minutia contained in these add-on books.

Do we need to know in the first book the place master throwers and drunken masters and feytouched and needlemen and ocean giants have in the campaign?

There's also the issue of making the PCs important and keeping the number of powerful NPCs down. Defining the role of each prestige class in the setting --- this is where eldritch knights come from, this is who can teach you candle magic, this is where the templars live --- ends up implying the existence of all sorts of relatively powerful NPCs.

In a setting like Eberron, I think it's far cooler to have the PC be unique --- the last of his kind or the first of his kind. If a player wants to play...say, an incantrix...well, maybe he comes from the only family in Eberron that knows those arcane secrets, or maybe he figures them out on his own.

Now, there might well be a market for something along the lines of "Player's Guide to Eberron," which would get into that sort of detail with some of these add-on products [as did the Player's Guide to Faerun], and tell you where the Book of Vile Darkness fits in and where the Draconomicon fits in and so forth. Some suggestions along those lines would be great as a web enhancement, and they make great message board fodder [people are already riffing on "Eberron meets Ghostwalk" and "Eberron meets Oriental Adventures"]. But not in the core rulebook.

 

[Estlor]

I think with Eberron there was a misunderstanding of what the fundamental aspect of the setting ("If it's in D&D, it's in Eberron") meant. Reading through the book I can tell that a strong effort was made to keep things as basic as possible while still leaving room for everything to have a place somewhere in the setting. Look at the core races - yes, they changed the flavor of each race, but the mechanics are the same and there isn't an overabundance of subraces to fill each niche of society (collectively known as the "Elven Subrace Problem").

Of course, the problem with opening the setting to any supplement currently released or due out (or even still just the wild imagination of a designer) is you have to prepare for anything. And to that end, Eberron did the right thing. If they had filled every organization with specific prestige classes or races from various supplements, it would have lessened the utility of the setting as a whole. More and more of the campaign setting would lose meaning for all but a select portion of the audience. Instead, they went the other way. Keep it fuzzy. Let the DM decide who makes up what. This way if you want an order to be all Favored Souls, it's done. But another DM can spin it a different way.

It's an economics issue also. Logically, more people will buy the core rulebooks than the millieu of supplements that come after it. Likewise, more people will buy the Eberron CS than the supplements to follow. Therefore, you cater the CS to the core audience, then get more specific in supplements. If they wanted to, WotC could probably get away with releasing a supplement that details how to include the more popular supplements at a later date.

Now as for the races not having enough mechanics, it occurs to me that the goal behind those races was to take some of the "kewler" monsters and turn them into ECL 0 races. Changlings are toned down doppelgangers. Shifters are toned down lycanthropes. Warforged are toned down golems. This gives them the chance to (at a later date) develop a series of feats or prestige classes that let these races tap fully into their ancestry. It's actually a sound mechanical decision.