Why didn't they change Slay Living?

[Hypersmurf]

So you are saying that two saves isnt quite a bit less dangerous than one save because a character happened to fail both saves?

It wasn't any less dangerous to him, was it?

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

I know that Disintegrate is more versatile. But why do you think a touch attack is enough reason for a lower level? If the 2 spell were exactly the same otherwise, a touch attack is much better than a ranged touch attack for just one reason: if you miss the touch attack you can try again with the same spell, if you miss the ranged touch attack you need to cast the spell again.

But, the two spells aren't exactly the same.

Slay living only does 3d6+1 per caster if the person makes the save. Not very significant damage at the levels approximate to the spell. It may be enough to kill someone who's already (perhaps significantly) hurt, but there's always raise dead for that.

Disintigrate does 5d6 if the save is made, and, if the target is low on HP, can still end up disintigrating said target. That means that a much bigger spell is now needed to bring the character back.

Comparing the two spells isn't really possible. Disintigrate is much more powerful considering it's just one spell level higher.

 

[Scion]

It wasn't any less dangerous to him, was it?

Um.. yes, it was.

Just because the final dice roll went in a certain way doesnt change what the probabilities were.

I understand what you are trying to say, from his point of view it was still death as a final result, but he could have rolled decently 'either' time and not had to worry about it.

Or been immune to fear. Or immune to mind effecting. Or had SR for yet another roll.

In the end, he was unlucky. But, it is a fairly easy spell to get around.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Disintegate is now a rather weak 6th level spell IMO. There's a ranged touch attack (or take nothing, and a fort save for next to nothing, and even if the target fails that save, they still might not die. It's only real benefits are that it isn't subject to spell turning and it works on undead. But, in 3.5, it's primary use is getting rid of force walls.

As for Phantasmal Killer, I'm still not really impressed by it, but I've seen a lot of people make good use of it (and, since my Living Arcanis cleric cohort got it as a domain spell, I've put it to good use). You just have to: 1. Have good DCs, 2. Pick your targets carefully, 3. Get lucky. Even so, it's often a good gamble to try for a 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 chance of ending the fight in the first round and it gets plenty of style points.

While Slay Living is strong, it is a touch spell. It is enough of a reason why Slay Living is a level lower than Disintegrate. Also, Disintegrate is more versatile.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Disintegrate is not a particularly great attack spell anymore, but has some value as a utility spell. Immunity to Disintegrate is also rather rare. No longer fearsome but still my favorite 6th level spell.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ranged touch means you are not standing next to the big guy with the sword ready to chop you in two.

Because, you must get close to the target.

That would be a serious penalty if it was a Wizard or Sorcerer spell.

It is not a serious penalty for a Cleric spell. Unless your Cleric is unlike most of the cleric characters around, which do not have much problems staying in melee and in fact they attack with melee weapons quite regularly.

You also have to consider that exactly because the spell gives a Fort save, the cleric is typically encouraged to use Slay Living against arcane casters or rogue-types, to which it is less dangerous to get close.

 

[Li Shenron]

One additional thought about spells that require Fortitude Saves: Characters with good fort saves are the most common characters. SEVEN out of the 11 base classes have good fortitude saving throws. (Six classes have good Will saves, and only four have good Reflex saves). In one sense, it's weaker than the other two saves required, because it's so prevalent! It's also why it's so much fun tossing Fireballs and lightning bolts.

It is true, but it is also too much an approximation and campaign-dependent to make a strong argument in favor of Slay Living. For example, you should also consider that the 11 classes aren't equally popular, at least it's very rare to face a Paladin; then you should check the monsters types (Fort is still the most common of the 3, but not as within core classes) and weight them differently by popularity.

But whatever the real frequency is, it is the same frequency than Disintegrate, Flesh to stone and other save-or-die. And with the same rationale Harm is not good against 6/11, which isn't much different.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sleep - 1st level, Will save or be coup-de-graced (read: die).
Deep Slumber - 3rd level, same as sleep, but more HD.
Hold Person - 3rd level, Will save or be helpless. If you're using wings to fly, you go splat.
Suggestion - 3rd level (2nd for bards), Will save or gleefully dive into the nearest lava stream.

Hmm...turns out that even being a low level adventurer is dangerous. Granted, none of the above spells outright kills the target, but given the proper hostile environment (what isn't?), just about any spell of any level can be proven to make for anticlimactic finishes. I don't recommend trying to kill the next BBEG with resist energy, however.

If anyone knows a way though, please let me know

You're right, none of the above spells outright kills the target, so they are not part of this discussion.

 

[Li Shenron]

But, the two spells aren't exactly the same.

Slay living only does 3d6+1 per caster if the person makes the save. Not very significant damage at the levels approximate to the spell. It may be enough to kill someone who's already (perhaps significantly) hurt, but there's always raise dead for that.

Disintigrate does 5d6 if the save is made, and, if the target is low on HP, can still end up disintigrating said target. That means that a much bigger spell is now needed to bring the character back.

Comparing the two spells isn't really possible. Disintigrate is much more powerful considering it's just one spell level higher.

Ok, let's not compare it with Disintegrate then. I used Disintegrate only to say that being a "touch" spell is worse than being a "close" spell but better than being a "ranged touch" spell (at least for clerics ). The original comparison was with Harm.

Anyway they toned down Harm. Did they tone down Disintegrate also, or any other save-or-die spells that you know? I just want to understand if they toned down save-or-die spells in general, or only Harm. Then I'd like to know if Slay Living was unchanged for a purpose or just because no one complained as hard as with Harm.

 

[Bront]

IIRC this spell was not changes from 3.0, or was it?



This is the lowest level save-or-die spell except for Phantasmal Killer (which allows two saves (Will and Fort) making it quite less dangerous).

Why Slay Living wasn't changed somehow by 3.5? Isn't it now more powerful than Harm, which would never kill and is one level higher? Do you think that WotC forgot about this spell during the revision or kept it like this on purpose?

It is really a very powerful spell, and because clerics are much more suited to be in melee than wizards, the fact that it is a "touch spell" does not make a serious restriction. The only limit is that it applies only to living creatures, which excludes undead, constructs and elementals.

Do you think this spell should have been toned down somehow?

Touch and save is the same equivilent to the save and save in the case of Phantasmal Killer. Generaly, spells with no save get a touch or range touch attack (Or are area effects).

Honestly, I don't see a problem with this. Especialy at 9th level, it becomes a problem to touch someone (Besides, you have to cast defensively to get it off without an AoO, and then make the attack.) You're talking a touch attack (+6 BaB plus mods) and a save (DC 17 min, probably more likely 19), so it's not unreasonable for someone to resist any or both of these (Good save is +6 at 9th, Bad save is +3, but that doesn't include anything else, and that's likely an issue at that level (Stats, items, class resistances.)